Permits

When it comes to putting on races, obtaining a permit (or permits, as the case may be) is one of the most fundamental aspects of the race planning process. However, with increasingly busier local event schedules and ever-changing permitting requirements, obtaining a permit for any event is becoming both costlier and more complicated than ever.

So, how can you best navigate the event permitting process? What things do you need to prepare for and focus on before reaching out to your local council or police department? And how do you manage the timeline of permit approvals alongside the 10,000 other balls you’re juggling in delivering your race?

That’s what we’re discussing today with my guest, Glass City Marathon award-winning race director, Clint McCormick. It’s a pleasure to welcome Clint back to the podcast for our first episode of 2025 and to be able to share in his expertise in the topic of permitting. 

With Clint’s help we’ll be looking at all aspects of the permitting process, from figuring out whom to contact first and when, understanding what authorities might expect from your event, preparing your application in a way that gives you the best chance of success, as well as managing a denial of permit deep into your event planning cycle, should you be unfortunate enough to have to face such an eventuality. 

In this episode:

• Do you really need a permit to operate your race?
• Who issues permits and where to go to get started.
• The curious case of the the Malibu Triathlon permit switch.
• How the proliferation of events strains local communities and increases competition for permits.
• What things you need to have ready to get started with the permitting process.
• How early should you look to start the permitting process?
• How to handle the uncertainty of permit approvals while planning your race.
• Does your experience as a race director factor into the permitting process
• What other factors can improve (or hurt) your chances of obtaining a race permit? 
• Does securing a permit this year give you a head start in securing a permit next year?
• Alternative routes and weather contingency plans in your permit application. 
• Appealing against a permit application rejection.
• What to do if your permits are rejected at the last minute.

Many thanks to our podcast sponsors, RunSignup and Brooksee, for supporting our efforts to provide great, free content to the race director community:

RunSignup are the leading all-in-one technology solution for endurance and fundraising events. More than 28,000 events use RunSignup's free and integrated solution to save time, grow their events, and raise more. Find out more at https://runsignup.com/.

Brooksee are the timing technology industry-leader, bringing affordable real-time tracking and timing checkpoints to races with their patented iPhone-sized micro checkpoints. Find out more and get 50% off your timing for your next event at https://www.brooksee.com/headstart.

You can find more resources on anything and everything related to race directing on our website RaceDirectorsHQ.com.

You can also share your questions about liability waivers or anything else in our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/racedirectorshq/ 

Transcript

Panos: 0:07

Hi! Welcome to Head Start, the podcast for race directors and the business of putting on races. When it comes to putting on races, obtaining a permit (or permits, as the case may be) is one of the most fundamental aspects of the race planning process. However, with increasingly busier local event schedules and ever-changing permitting requirements, obtaining a permit for any event is becoming both costlier and more complicated than ever. So, how can you best navigate the event permitting process? What things do you need to prepare for and focus on before reaching out to your local council or police department? And how do you manage the timeline of permit approvals alongside the 10,000 other balls you're juggling in delivering your race? Well, that's what we're discussing today with my guest, Glass City marathon award-winning race director, Clint McCormick. It's a pleasure to welcome Clint back to the podcast for our first episode of 2025 and to be able to share in his expertise in the topic of permitting. With Clint's help, we'll be looking at all aspects of the permitting process, from figuring out whom to contact first and when, understanding what authorities might expect from your event, preparing your application in a way that gives you the best chance of success, as well as managing a denial of permit deep into your event planning cycle, should you be unfortunate enough to have to face such an eventuality. Before we get into this great discussion, though, I'd like to give a quick shout out to the amazing sponsors supporting this podcast. Many thanks to RunSignup, race directors' favorite all-in-one technology solution for endurance and fundraising events, now powering more than 28,000 in-person, virtual, and hybrid events. And many thanks to Brooksee, the timing technology industry-leader, bringing affordable, real-time tracking and timing checkpoints to races with their patented micro checkpoints. Two great companies we'll be hearing a bit more from later in the podcast. But, now, let's dive into our discussion on race permits with Clint McCormick. Clint, welcome back to the podcast.

Clint: 2:17

Hey. Thanks for having me again.

Panos: 2:18

Well, thank you very much for coming back on, particularly as it is planning season. You're quite busy with a lot of things. Races are not happening, but lots of things to plan for 2025. How are things in the Glass City?

Clint: 2:29

We're doing well. We're starting to see - as a lot of other areas are - kind of a resurgence of the running community. So we're excited for next year and what it may hold for us.

Panos: 2:39

Are you also seeing what's been widely reported - like grassroots, new activity around running and the industry going from strength to strength?

Clint: 2:49

So last year, '24, we kind of started off flat to down but, as the year went on, when we finished up on Thanksgiving Day, we were up 10% to 15% for that race. So throughout the year, we start to see more people come back. Families really are the trigger for Thanksgiving. So I think that's a great indicator of how will next year pan out and kind of dive into the demographics to figure out who we can track that 20 to 30 demo.

Panos: 3:16

And you're seeing that across all distances, all types of events - triathlons, running events, 5Ks, marathons?

Clint: 3:23

More so on the marathon side, which is interesting. I think people are really tackling that marathon. The marathon is probably increasing more than the 5K. And I think, if you look at that 20 to 30 demo, they're very athletic, but they want to be challenged, they want to try to chase that goal. They may not do it for trying to qualify for Boston or trying to get a fast time. I think a lot of these are just doing it as an accomplishment, to prove themselves that they can.

Panos: 3:49

Lots of articles I've been reading recently actually seem to point again and again, which is no surprise because it consistently comes out as the most popular distance-- they all seem to point towards young people being particularly interested in the half marathon. That seems to be the sweet spot in terms of distance.

Clint: 4:06

Yeah, and it has been for the last 15-18 years. It's an achievable event with what I'm going to consider minimal to regular training. You don't have to commit your life to training like you do with the marathon, and it's a lot easier to recover. So the injuries typically are less, the recovery time is faster, and therefore you can do more of them in a season.

Panos: 4:31

Yeah, what I keep saying is that the marathon has all the glam and the history, and it's the marathon kind of thing - that's why many people go for it- but the half marathon is such a much more enjoyable humane distance to do and--

Clint: 4:45

That might be the best way I've heard it - it's the humane distance.

Panos: 4:48

It is, isn't it? I mean, it's still a bit of an achievement. If you think about it, it has that little half pre bit to it, which doesn't work in its favor at a dinner party. It's always more impressive to say you've run a marathon than a half marathon. But if you think about it, it is-- and from a runner point of view, I think most people would agree that it is a very, very nice distance to run.

Clint: 5:10

Right. I mean, if you think about it, I mean, it's still your average runner bell curve on the finish clock is still two hours. I mean, it's a two hour workout, so it's nothing to sneeze at.

Panos: 5:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you get the whole atmosphere of the race and half marathons these days. They've invested a lot - particularly standalone races - in becoming really great events. You're a man of many accolades in the industry. We discussed this when you were last on the podcast. You've been voted Race Director of the Year by Road Race Management back in 2021 Glass City Marathon, which is-- sort of the marquee race you direct has been voted race of the year by the Road Runners Club of America. And you yourself, you're an MBA by education, lots of experience in the industry. For the benefit of listeners who may not have caught you on our previous episode of scaling up back in April 2023, do you want to maybe walk us through your trajectory in the industry, a little bit about your experience, what you're currently doing, how you ended up with Glass City marathon, and a little bit about the work you've done there, which I think has been very impressive?

Clint: 6:18

Yeah, so my approach to race directing, it was probably vastly different than most others. I was voluntold to be a race director back in 2008 with zero experience going into that other than just loving running and understanding it and being educated. What we initially had taken on was a local club run with about 700 runners, so it was a good-sized club run. But for the history that it had, it didn't feel that it was given its just due. Mostly, as a lot of clubs are, they're run by volunteers. So when we got involved, we kind of took a look at what is the vision and opportunity for this particular race. We put together a committee that many are still with me now to figure out what that vision might look like, and then we started putting plans together to accomplish those. So I guess, long story short, we put a business plan together for the race. We then hired our first hire - a sponsorship coordinator. She's also still with me, and she helped then sell the message to our local community to bring in some additional dollars, which in turn helps us reinvest into the event, to the marketing, reinvest into the runner, and start doing the things that the customer expects today, and that's building the atmosphere. So I think a lot of it just early on is trial by fire. I've made a lot of mistakes as you do, and you learn from those. But I think the history that we have now, doing this for such a long time, and watching an event grow from a smaller event to kind of a mid-range national attraction, if you will, certainly helps.

Panos: 7:59

Well, absolutely, and just a couple of figures from the previous episode we did together, which was actually based on the entire episode from April 2023, which I strongly advise people to go back and have a listen to. That episode was called Scaling Up and it was all about your work at Glass City marathon, taking participation 10 fold up, revenue 20 fold up. So a great success story there. It's very interesting to look at what people's first instincts are when they go into a business like this, sort of with no prior hiccups or sort of prejudices, and it's interesting that your first thing was putting someone in charge of sponsorship. Was that, you think, the MBA perspective into all that?

Clint: 8:43

Yeah. I mean, it truly is. When we approached it, our five-year plan was 3,000 people, and we were modest. We recognize who we are, what region of the country we are, and what type of customer base do we have, and we felt we were under-serving that. But we also knew that in order to accomplish those goals, you basically need some financing. So that's kind of one piece of a sponsorship. But the second piece of a sponsorship is I'm gonna call it the Gold Star approval from the community. If you can get some sponsors in the community that are well recognized to get behind your initiatives, I think that provides to the community that level of belief that it's going to be a good event, because now we have to live up to the standards of that particular company. So, doing it right-- no sponsor wants to get on board and fail, so that you're going to have additional resources and not only knowledge, but also that reputation.

Panos: 9:39

Yeah, but it's also quite interesting - this approach about keeping your sights on revenue with a view to reinvest, not with the view to basically draw money out. But early on, having someone with sponsorship expertise, which lots of race directors sometimes try to take on themselves, and having someone dedicated going after that, it's a full-time role, isn't it, essentially?

Clint: 10:02

It is. And like I said, she was our first hire ever. And you know, you kind of, you kind of argue, what is your first hire typically going to be? Is it the volunteer coordinator, or is it the sponsorship person? Because the race director at the end of the day can't do it all, and the ones that try to do it all have limitations on how to scale up an event we looked at leveraging because we were a club race. We still have volunteers in the club who are able to be volunteer coordinators and kind of tackle some of those other positions as we grew. It worked for us. And then I duplicated that again when I spun off our company, Run Toledo, and now we're a full service event management company, again, kind of my first hire for that position was a sponsorship and business development person.

Panos: 10:43

There you go. A very short summary of our scaling up episode. As I said, I strongly advise people to go back into the podcast archives and dig that episode up and have a listen - really, really interesting, helpful information in that. Today, we're not going to be talking about that. We're going to be talking about permits, arguably an episode long overdue for the podcast because permits, it's a big deal. I guess seasoned race directors don't think of them much, although I guess they may still be a source of stress in some circumstances, even for the most experienced race director, but it's definitely at the very least slightly intimidating and confusing topic for a newer race director. So it's very important that we go over it. And just to set the scene, I just want to understand, what are we talking about when we're talking about permits. Are we talking about-- and we're talking event permits here. Are we're talking about a stamped piece of paper that says, you have the go ahead to put on your event then and there, on that date, that venue, etc, signed by the authority. What form does the permit take?

Clint: 11:58

Yeah. So I think the easiest way to break it down is-- and I'm not an English major, so maybe there's some derivatives here, but permit is your permission. If you don't have a permit, then you don't have permission. And I guess they will get into the permission to do what - to close the roads, to host people in a park, and to bring in beer or alcohol. Permits come in many different ways and forms. And simplest definition is getting approval from the owners of the property to do what you want to do.

Panos: 12:38

And the owners of the property, I guess, going back to closed roads and parks and stuff, is the local council or the municipality or the city council. Are those bodies by law vested with the authority to issue permits? Like, is it a formal thing? Is there a law somewhere that says that person only, or that council or that committee within that council has the authority to issue these permits to these types of events?

Clint: 13:09

Yeah. So typically, you're going to find these through the police department, I would say, your public safety and service agencies, and that's usually where you would start. If you're not sure where to go to get started, just contact your local police department, and it's going to vary widely. I mean, I do permits for one particular township, and I set up a meeting with a police officer, we shake hands and we're good, as simple as that. You go to other cities, City of Detroit, for example, and they have the special events division of the police department that will kind of go through the whole process with you, and it's multiple pages, but a lot of it has to do with what are the ordinances of those jurisdictions, and it includes not only the police and road closures, but how many police are required to be at a particular intersection to maintain safety and order. A general rule of thumb is, if there's a stop sign, they typically put one officer. At the stop light, they put two officers. Depending on how many people do you have, are you required to have EMS on site? What does that medical safety plan look like? What does your weather emergency plan look like, but also the noise ordinances - what time are you allowed to play amplified music, and how loud and until what time at night. So usually, your special event division or your police department are well versed in what those are, and those are all things that that jurisdiction has passed through city council and have gone that way. I've also worked in cities or villages where the city council has the first say. And every time I got up in front of them, the first thing they do is they look to the police chief and say, "Do you know about this? And do you like the plan, and do you approve it?" Again, while the City Council has the say, they defer their judgment to the police chief. So in my experience, your local police department is the first place to go get their buy-in, and then whatever process follows next, they'll guide you through that.

Panos: 15:10

And it's fair to say that we're not talking about a courtesy here, because I know in some trail races, and I guess permitting for trail races is a completely different kind of worm, because you have a variety of other kinds of bodies and organizations coming into it in some cases. But with some of those races, a good, diligent race director would pick up the phone to the local forestry this, or fire brigade that, or whatever, and just put in a call, like, just say, "We're looking at that. What would you need from us." that kind of thing. But it's more of a courtesy thing. Here, we're talking about, if you don't get this and you go ahead with the event, police cars roll over and event is over kind of thing, right?

Clint: 15:58

So, yeah, we're talking about road racing or triathlons where you're using roads, it would not be safe to the runners. Whether or not you may be fined for shutting down a road, essentially, or holding an unlawful parade, I'm sure there's some potential negligence that you would be found for moving forward by doing that because, yeah, you are using tax-funded public right of ways to do these events. Fortunately, I've never experienced a situation where we've got to that point because while you might think it's courtesy, it may be your naivety of the process to seek approval. And I think as you go through being a race director who may not know that these rules, laws, or ordinances exist, but you'll be educated pretty quickly once you kind of move forward to a certain point. And a lot of times, if you're in the community and you're advertising it, you may get a courtesy phone call like, "Hey, I see you're advertising this particular event but we don't have permits on file for you." So you know, just being in touch with that community is probably a better thing than not.

Panos: 17:14

Although it's your responsibility to seek out what's required and drive the process.

Clint: 17:19

Correct, correct. And we've done ultra runs through parks. Again, I'll probably layer it. If you don't have a venue, the landowner, and that landowner could be the park system, it could be a local Metro Park, it could be a community park, it could be the roads, whatever that venue is, that's your first stop. If you don't have that, you can't proceed to move out. And a lot of times when you do longer distance events, half marathons, maybe Olympic-distance triathlons, it's multi-jurisdictional, and it's all predicated on, well, do you have the permit from the previous jurisdiction in order to move forward with the next one. The event that we do in Dexter-Ann Arbor is probably a four-month process of-- it pretty much starts January 1, because that's when our insurance certificates renew. Once I get that insurance certificate, we go to the first jurisdiction. Once we get that one, we go to the next. And then once we get that one, go to the next, and then we go, finally, to city council for Ann Arbor in end of March. But just because I'm waiting for City Council doesn't mean I'm already working with the police chief and everybody else. That then becomes a formality at the very end. So understanding the totality of the process is helpful, and I would say it's getting more complicated. More people want to know what's going on in their communities. You may also find that a lot of communities are kind of getting tired of events, and you may start to see some additional requirements and/or limitations, meaning they might say, we will allow 10 events, maybe 12 events, 1 event per month, and that's all we're gonna allow. So getting on the calendar early with them, understand that process, you don't want to wait to the last minute and find out,"Well, sorry, we've already used all our permits for the year. You're denied."

Panos: 19:12

So basically, yeah, then you're going into the situation where you're basically competing with other events on who gets the permit for a specific month or for a specific set of dates.

Clint: 19:23

Correct. And I think we're starting to see more of that. Probably the most famous one, if you will, I think it was last year down in Hawaii, was the Iron Man organizer. I believe it was Iron Man distance triathlon - I'm sure you heard about this - sold the business. The new business owner tried to get the permits. The old business owner went back and took the permit, and they only issued one.

Panos: 19:49

Yeah, that was Malibu actually. I think it was Malibu Triathlon. So basically, what happened, if I remember correctly, is that there was a private organizer putting on the race. They sold the race to Iron Man or Rock n' Roll, or one of those folks, probably Malibu Triathlon sold it to one of the big boys. Next year comes round, permits up, the previous organizer of the Malibu Triathlon sets up another company, bids for the same permit, and basically whoever bought his race previously is left out, which actually highlights lots of scary and interesting things about our business and about this thing that people keep saying in our business that you don't actually ever sort of own an event. An event through permits can be denied to you at any turn, and you could be left with nothing,

Clint: 20:42

right? So a little bit of due diligence on that, on the purchaser side would have been, to that point of permits, saying, "Okay, well, how many permits does this town allow? And what are my chances of getting it before they decide to buy it?" So I think some due diligence on the acquisition side was missed.

Panos: 21:01

But you're saying, from your experience, which is actually probably what a lot of people are seeing as well, that permitting, besides getting more complicated, which I guess is the way of things-- more bureaucracy piling up on existing bureaucracy. Everyone wants a cut. Everyone wants a say. So things are getting more complicated, more formalized, which is probably expected, but there's also a little bit of pushback against too many events, too many permits locally. So perhaps some communities are getting a little bit strained from the weight of too many events, too dense of a race calendar.

Clint: 21:39

Yeah. So as a result of that, I've seen a couple of things happening. One is, you may find that you want to do a, let's say a 5K. Well, the city or town you're going to will say, "Okay, you can do it. This is the route you're giving." They will assign you a 5K route. And because they know that the impact is low, they know how to protect it, the community knows what that route is. Problem is from your side, if you're trying to put on an event and make it different than the previous five weekends, it's going to be very difficult. You're now just another 5K on the calendar. And quite frankly, I don't think the city or the town really cares. It's on you to make it different. The other thing I'm seeing is, one, permitting cost, where it used to be you fill out the paperwork and say thank you, and they take care of it. Now they're saying there's a $100 just filing fee for the permit. So again, there's more cost being buried into the cost of participation. Third piece is the cost of police is going up. And quite frankly, they're trying to charge maybe time and a half where they used to only charge straight rate. So maybe it was $60 an hour, now it's $90 an hour. That's a 50% increase in security costs that is, again, leading to higher registration costs. And then finally, the thing that I'm seeing is more community, I want to call it, neighborhood notification requirements at the cost of the organization. Now, what does that look like? Is it just a couple of road signs put up? Do you have to put up-- go door to door with door hangers? Do you have to mail a flyer? But also, we were forced at the last minute last year to put up the kind of flashing road signs, the digital boards at $1,000 apiece. So again, more cost going into the participant that we weren't dealing with five years ago.

Panos: 23:26

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Clint: 25:26

It is. And we talk about that internally. People coming to races are using their discretionary extra money. We have to make an argument of,"Why are they going to spend $45 coming to a 5K versus going to a local concert or another sporting event?" And sometimes it's a hard argument, and you've got to make sure that you're providing them with that level of atmosphere and experience that they come to expect. because that's what they're comparing against. It's not just the next 5K they're competing against. You are competing against everything on the calendar.

Panos: 25:59

In terms of discretionary dollars, absolutely, but perhaps also in terms of police time like availability, the goodwill of the community because there's so many times that you can disrupt the local roads on a Saturday, on a Sunday, and maybe other events want to do that besides races as well.

Clint: 26:21

You're absolutely right on that. And again, some of our communities, locally around North of Ohio, they embrace it because they might be a smaller town and they don't have that many events, and they think it's great. Other communities are saying, "We've had enough. Last weekend, we had a parade, and this weekend we got a race, and next weekend we've got something else going on, and there's a bike ride going on, and the flea market wants to do something on the roads." Every weekend, there's something and that's partially where the permitting, I guess, quantity, comes from, in terms of how many they're going to start allowing. And that directive will probably come from a city council saying,"That's it. We're only doing 12 because our constituents are tired, so we're gonna allow one permit per month." And then the police chief basically has to come up with what are the parameters, essentially, first come first serve. So just because you had a race last year doesn't mean you get it next year because that's not fair to other community members if you hold that permit every single year. So it gets challenging that way.

Panos: 27:25

You mentioned that the first door to knock in all this- because a big part for new races is understanding where to begin - would be the police. How early do you think, with regards to your planned race day, should you get started in that process?

Clint: 27:45

It's one of the top, if not the first place to go. I say that hesitantly because, in order to go to the police, you have to have a plan, you have to have a route, you have to know what you're doing, what the expectation of number of participants, what the community impact is. So you have to have a pretty good amount of legwork done prior to going to anybody. But in terms of agencies, I wouldn't go to anyone else first, say, "Hey, here's the idea," because they're going to ask you all those questions for them to make a determination. That's typically where we start, and that holds true in almost every jurisdiction. Whether it's a Metropark, they're going to consult with their Rangers. If we're working on a couple at an airport, they're then going to talk to the security team at the airport about what they can handle. That's generally a high recommendation - to start there.

Panos: 28:34

So just to pin that question down a little bit before we move on to other stuff, I'm mostly thinking of people who are new to this, more experienced people would probably know the roads, and it's a fine balance, but what kinds of stuff and how well baked do you think your plans need to be to reach out to the police? Because, as you say, they'll ask you for a million things. You want to start the process early, so you need to balance this stuff a little bit. So what would you have in the bag before you decide to reach out?

Clint: 29:06

The route in particular is going to be the highlight of your conversation. So you need to have your primary, and then what about secondary and alternate routes? So kind of have an idea. You don't have to have them fully baked because, sometimes, you may not know what the rules of that area are, like, what roads are we allowed to run on. They may say, "Main Street, we never shut it down because it's a state highway and it's a through pass." So you have to have some general idea of what roads you can and can't travel. So obviously, the route. Number two is, they may ask you number of participants. Okay, you're gonna have 500 people, 1000 people. And a lot of the reason for that is, it's not necessarily for the permit, but where are we gonna park everybody? So your planning procedure-- like, if you say,"We're gonna bring 1000 people, and you're doing a Metropark, and they have a capacity of 200 people, well, they're gonna shoot you down right away and say, "There's no way you can do this. This venue cannot support what you're trying to do." So I think you have to have a reasonable understanding of what that venue capacity is. The other thing that we do a lot of work with Metroparks is they may have pit toilets that can't support the load of more than 200 people, and that's where they determine what that might look like. So you'll be required to bring in additional portable toilets. So kind of understanding that venue's capacities is hugely important. After that, once you have the route and general discussion, I think everything else is ancillary. That might be a second or third meeting down the road. What does your weather plan look like? What does your medical plan look like? Some of those things. I think those are more secondary and not necessarily required for that first meeting.

Panos: 30:51

The process itself-- I know this is a kind of how long is a piece of string kind of question, but typically, how long would it take? Let's say, for, you know, like for an inaugural 5K couple of hundred people, not a particularly complex course, what kind of time frame are we looking at from start to finish, if there is such a thing?

Clint: 31:13

I would like to start the process six months out, and the reason is, you kind of have to back up, like, what is your marketing plan? Typically, for a simple 5K, you need 90 days. That's kind of when the clock starts ticking in order to launch it properly and order everything else you need - the T-shirts, the metals, the food, the volunteers, and participants. I don't feel confident in opening up a registration 90 days out without having permits in place. So I would start six months out. Anything sooner is going to create undue stress on yourself because you're going to want an answer tomorrow, and on their pecking order, you're not that important and you may get it in a month. So I wouldn't risk anything more than six months. Now, all that to say, a simple 5K in the community, if you go to the police chief and say,"Hey, here's what I do," and you say, "Here's what the route is." They're, "Yeah, that sounds good. Well, we'll get the details later," but they give you the verbal go ahead. So that's promising. Others may say, "Okay, that's great. We need to go to city council. City council agenda is full for the next two months, so we're going to see you in three months." Those are the two possibilities. So it may not seem complicated to you, but the procedure of that community will dictate your timeline.

Panos: 32:29

So that's another very important fine balance for organizers, right? The fact that sometimes the process takes longer than they expect ,and some people are forced to sort of take a leap of faith and start doing other stuff towards the race. Otherwise, you're not going to get there. And I guess many people decide to take that risk and do that.

Clint: 32:53

Yeah, I think there's two ways you can approach that comment. One is naivety. They just don't know what they don't know. So they don't feel that they're at risk because they just don't know. The latter would be a calculated risk. Other events happen in this community. I feel good about it. If you do have some experience, you just have a level of comfort understanding what processes might look like that you feel confident that the process will work and you'll get the permit regardless. I probably should have started off the whole conversation with this, but I think that communities-- we've been kind of talking about how hard it is. Community wants events. They want to help you. They just put all these procedures in place to make sure that it's done safely, the communities are up to speed and notified. So don't look at this whole process of being so cumbersome that they're doing this to make your life hard. Communities do want events because it's good for everything that a small town is all about, especially in today's society, of all the different types of organizations that are out there, they don't want the bad publicity of saying why they did not give a permit to a certain type of group, Regardless of the reason, they want to help you. So I guess we probably should have started off that they-- in the long term, they're not trying to stop you. They just have processes.

Panos: 34:22

Yeah, and I guess the processes are there, as you say, not only to, in some cases, tick very important boxes, but also to maybe weed out some people who may not be particularly serious or professional in going ahead with the event.

Clint: 34:37

Right. The insurance certificate is usually one of the first documents they ask for. So if you don't have a way to obtain an insurance certificate and then make the city or venue an additional insured, that kind of stops it right at the beginning. That's one of the early documents that you may be required to produce. Now, a lot of times, since I do a lot of permits, pretty far in advance, they'll have my certificate, or I'll present my certificate for this year. By the time the event rolls around, it'll be expired. So they'll say, "Okay, you're showing proof that you have it. You just need to buy race day, get me your most current one." So they typically will work with you in situations like that, that if you're doing it so far in advance, your paperwork may not be up to date for race day.

Panos: 35:27

The process of submitting a permit application is that, I'm guessing, these days, it's done online, right? Or is there still sort of, like, paperwork involved?

Clint: 35:38

It really depends. I have both. Like I said, some of them is just an email, so very rudimentary, all the way to-- one I work on in Detroit is probably 15 pages all online through their government portal. And if you don't check a particular box, like, the system stops you before it even gets to a person. You have to make sure you have a lot of things in place in order to move forward that way.

Panos: 36:10

And down the line, besides the simple email stuff or the handshake approvals you might get, for more formalized processes, do ever actual meetings with actual people physically take place as part of the process?

Clint: 36:27

I try to with every single one. Again, it goes back to relationships. If everything we do in this business is relationship based-- so meetings with the police are strong recommendations to do early on, because at the end of the day, what you're asking them to do is secure your route and deal with the public. So we make a really strong effort to sit down with them and explain the route so that when-- I mean, again, you typically meet with one person for the police department, but you may have 50 police officers work in your race. Those 50 other people were just told to show up to a corner, and they have no knowledge of your event. Usually, myself and my operations manager will meet with them to kind of go over the plan, but then just maybe 15 minutes before the race, he'll drive out and stop at every intersection and explain to the officer which direction the participants are going so they set up properly and block the right roads, but also explain to them what I call the end of race might look like. Just because the last runner goes by doesn't mean they can open the road because there might be a cleanup process involved. We have volunteers on the road tearing down water stops, and they need to make sure that they wait for a certain go-ahead, or they'll just say, "Well, last runner is gone. I'm done." Now you have cars chasing your back of the pack, which is unsafe. So it's very important to kind of go through that procedure and have a plan in place that, on race day, you are talking to those police officers or safety officials out there on the course as well. So the relationship, though, starts with whoever the safety official is, if it's special events, or at the chief of police, explaining what you're going to be doing, how you're going to be doing it, so they feel confident in approving your plan.

Panos: 38:25

In your experience, how well versed and familiar are local police chiefs, local fire chiefs these days with the requirements and the subtleties and, like, all the little specific bits that are involved in putting on an event, and the safety requirements around all those? Are they quite familiar with those? Have they typically seen enough?

Clint: 38:52

It's a mixed bag because, over the last five years, post COVID, we've seen a lot of turnover, so we've had to retrain a lot of people, not only in the permitting process, but also for race operations - what that might look like. Now that we're kind of getting farther and farther removed from the COVID stuff and the people are starting to become tenured, it's becoming easier for them to understand or tell us what the expectation is. So I would say, compared to pre COVID, it's a more complicated process, but I think that people now are more well versed to help you through that than we were just a few years ago. Definitely more complicated than 10 years ago.

Panos: 39:38

Okay. And do you find that during the application process, the resume, so to speak, of the applying race director plays a role in all this? For instance, if your race director with some kind of formal certification or particularly deep resume and experience in putting on events, does that in itself-- obviously, that will reflect in your work and how prepared you are, very likely, but does that in itself give you a better chance of securing a permit or winning over a permit compared to a less experienced race director if you're in competition for a limited number of permits?

Clint: 40:21

Yeah, I'm a big fit in proponent of this topic because I think that you want to make sure that, if you are shutting your roads down, you are doing it safely, that there is a good plan, and it's a good event for everybody. We're seeing, I would say, more and more nonprofits, smaller races are now hiring us for the sole purpose of race operations and permitting. That way, they know that when we go to the table and we deal with the special events team, that they're dealing with the professional team. We are doing way more events now that way just in that capacity, and it relieves the anxiety or stress or undue burden on a nonprofit who's not well versed in that because we just know what questions to ask, and therefore we know how to direct the police and make sure that it's taken care of the right way. So, long story short, I think that the relationship does help. The hesitation is that the more and more online applications are going to these check boxes that relationship dwindles for that early expectation. So you may take us longer to get to the face to face than it did in the past because, now, you just have a bunch of check boxes to go through first and you're just one of the systems.

Panos: 41:46

And you're saying that there is no section in the checkboxes that would put your experience to the test. There's no field in the application, nothing asking you, "How many races have you been directing races for?"

Clint: 42:00

Oh, I've never seen that question. So the direct questions, it's all about the event. It's the same, same questionnaire to every single applicant. But again, if the date is open, in my experience, you're getting your permit. Typically, when you go through the application process, it asks you for your date, and it tells you right up front if the date is available or not. Yeah, I don't think that if the date is available, that gives you reason for denial. It just takes some time. It might take you a longer step to have that face-to-face meeting.

Panos: 42:34

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Clint: 44:20

I have not seen that question other than they may say, "Who does it benefit?" So I've seen that question that way, and it's semantics. So well, my company is a for-profit company. We all know that the majority of putting on road races is to benefit somebody. I think it's a tall task for a community to just open up their arms and there's no give back. Every race that we do, we have some charitable component to it. If it's just simply giving money back to the cross country team who's work in the water stop at the very simplest level, then I would take issue, just being in this industry, if a I'm-going-to-call-it an out of town cookie-cutter type of race comes into our town to put on, let's just say, a Christmas run, and they're a for-profit company, and the money is leaving town. If I have a local Christmas run, we want to make sure that money stays here. So I think out of town versus in town is a different discussion, nonprofit versus for profit.

Panos: 45:33

So you think that that is actually a factor?

Clint: 45:35

I don't think that it is, but I think it potentially should be.

Panos: 45:38

Which I guess makes sense because one of my next questions would have been economic impact and, I guess, local communities should care. Yeah, they should care very, very, very deeply about these kinds of things because that is, I'm guessing, one of the big incentives behind local communities wanting to encourage events in their area.

Clint: 45:56

Right. So not only the economic impact of dollars brought in but also, where's that money going into? How does that help our community? If we're going to give you this permit, what is the why for the community? What do they stand to gain by shutting all the roads down and inconveniencing neighborhoods? And I think when you approach a permit that way, that's-- you have to be able to answer those questions. "Hey, I just want to come in here and shut these roads down because you have a lot of runners, and I want to make money off your runners" is not a good argument. And I'm speaking as a for-profit event management company. If now, we're like, "Oh well, we're going to support the local running group. We're going to give money back to the schools. We're trying to raise money for a food shelter or a homeless shelter, or something of that effect." That's a pretty good argument, regardless of how you are structured as a company, according to the government.

Panos: 46:55

Do you find that in those cases, some of those organizations that benefit, and perhaps even businesses you bring on as sponsors or advocates can also sort of become your ambassadors during the permitting process and basically pitch in into the importance of a particular event coming on?

Clint: 47:14

I think it's good public policy to do that. I don't know if, in the permitting process, there's a place for it to help. Usually, in the permitting process, very rarely do I see the non factors such as the economic impact. They typically, in my experience, are asking for, "What is your police and fire plan? What is your weather plan? What are all the safety procedures that you are telling us you're going to follow to make sure that if we do this, the event itself is going to be safe?" I think the permit process leans more on the safety of it versus the argument of, well, it's good for the community. Now, where I can see the discussion going is if you have to get in front of city council to pitch your case to be allowed to apply for a permit, okay, well, why are you coming to our town to do this? City council may ask you those kinds of questions, but once you get down to dealing with the police and the safety services and streets and barricades, I don't think they really care. It's just another job for them.

Panos: 48:18

Right. So that's another very interesting point in this discussion, I guess - understanding the different motives and incentives of the different parties involved in this - because as you say, the police is all about safety, managing the downside, making sure nothing bad happens. Then you have the city council, who might be a little bit more interested in-- because these are voted officials, by the way, as well.

Clint: 48:41

Politicking.

Panos: 48:43

Well, I mean, it's only natural, and I think it's politicking in its best forms in the sense that they are speaking for the people they represent and they'd be interested in economic impact, disruption, other types of stuff. And I guess, in a case like that, you should be aware of the potential for either of those parties pulling the rug under your event, right?

Clint: 49:06

Correct. And that's what I'm saying. When you hatch an idea six months in advance of a 5K, if that's our example, you have to have an argument of why, how is it benefiting it? Because in most communities, I mean, there's 200 5Ks going on in a calendar year. Why should we support yours and we've got five more behind you? If they do start to tighten the belt which I would suspect is probably going to start coming sooner than later - the cap on number of permits issued.

Panos: 49:38

We mentioned earlier on insurance. We reiterated emergency planning risk assessments. How deep do these plans need to go as part of the permitting process? Would you have to have, for instance, alternative routes, contingency plans for blocking roads, adverse weather? How crazy do these things become?

Clint: 50:04

Yeah, I think at its simplest level, the longer your run, ie going from 5K to a marathon or doing a sprint triathlon versus an Ironman, the longer distance and the more jurisdictions, and the longer time frame you'll be doing this, the more complicated the documentation will be because the risk increases. The longer you're doing something, you have greater risk. So let's just say, for a simple 5K, they might say,"What's your weather plan?" Well, if it's raining, we're running, but if we see lightning, we reserve the right to delay for half an hour. Anything beyond that, we might just cancel. They might just want to know what's the expectation if it does have a thunderstorm? What do I tell my police officers? Because the time is ticking, right? Your permit is only allowed from x time to x time. They want to have a general sense of, "Well, no, we're just going to wait for it to stop raining." That could be four hours. What are my police officers going to do? So they're thinking what is the time impact going to look like. What is your medical plan? Anytime you gather people together, you should have some idea. And you might just say,"Call 911." Well, at the simplest form, that is a plan, but you might make sure that there's no confusion on what that might be and that's what you've communicated to all your volunteers and your staff that, hey, if something of medical nature happens, call 911. Or you may have a full triage tent at your finish line with physicians and doctors and medical people on bikes throughout the event. If that happens, do you have a common phone number? So I think they just want to know what is your communication plan for when something happens. It doesn't have to be elaborate. They just want to know that you've thought about it.

Panos: 51:43

Because you mentioned, all of this contingency planning which, of course, touches on the question of perhaps some races needing to be postponed or even canceled in some cases. Does the financial good standing of an organizer come into it? Will the council see, let's say, business reviews and decide that maybe some organizers may not be reputable enough or in good credit? They may not have a sound enough balance sheet to go ahead with a race like that. Or they may be chewing off more than they can-- they can be biting off more than they can chew kind of thing, right? I mean, you come up with it with an inexperienced little organizer company, and you're saying, "I want to close the center of LA and put on a marathon" kind of thing, like, I mean, this feasibility type issues, but practical feasibility issues, right?

Clint: 52:35

And I'll speak coming from both sides of that because, at one point, every business is small. So I would say that you have to give them a chance. I think it's important for the jurisdiction to tell you, "Here are all the costs." Some of them want their payment in advance. Actually, I think every police department I work with, they expect payment no later than the start time of the race. If you don't pay your security by the time that the race starts, they're not working whereas some of the other ones, it's post race - your other vendors and things like that. So I have not seen a question or I don't believe I've ever been asked about the financial soundness of our company, so I would say that, if you are new, I guess having an understanding that you are promising to make these payments, they'll give you the first time. And then decisions that we made every year, well, you didn't pay your bills last year. You're not getting a permit. So I think that they tend to believe that the organization has the ability to do something until they prove they cannot - I would probably say it the best that way.

Panos: 53:51

The payment that goes to the Council or the police is very understandable for them to do some diligence into that. But for instance, I was thinking more like - I don't know whether you're aware of this, pretty much everyone - that disastrous, kind of, fire fest thing that some guy tried to pull off. It was a total disaster. That guy rolls into town and he says, "I want to put up a marathon." Like, don't you think that the council would basically look at his CV a little bit or his company and say, "I mean, come on, you tried to do this. It was a total disaster. You're obviously a little bit out of your depth, at least scale it back" or, like, make any kind of suggestion like that.

Clint: 54:30

Yeah, I think it depends on how large the infrastructure impact might be. We have a guy who came in and promised a bunch of concert series, and he was vetted pretty heavily on his financial background in order to do a big concert. He wants to do, like, 10 concerts and build a bunch of stuff and drop him a couple million dollars. I think, at that level, then the council is going to be digging into your financials a little bit. My experience for what we're trying to do, our infrastructure is going to be more on the side of closing roads, putting up a bunch of party tents and festival tents. We'll bring in a stage, but I have not had to deal with that level quite yet. Now our marathon is a different tier than, you say, a Chicago Marathon, a world major, or a 20,000-plus kind of, and I'll throw loosely out there, like the Rock 'n' Roll Series marathons kind of things. They kind of roll town to town and do something similar. If I'm going to go in somewhere and promise the world, and we're going to bring in ten million of economic impact, and we're going to shut down this whole park and put up all this stuff, I would expect them to kind of say, "Well, can you show me how or how are you planning on doing this?" I think it would be on them to ask the question absolutely.

Panos: 56:00

You mentioned also earlier a lot of these permits are being issued on a first come first serve basis, which is a little bit surprising to me because I would have thought that okay, I mean, you can put in all the effort and maybe, down the line, you get the permit denied or something, but at least if you secure an event this year, I would have thought that you'd be first in line for that date next year kind of thing. Are you saying, sort of, every year is a clean slate and everyone goes in with new dates, new everything?

Clint: 56:32

From the permitting agency's perspective, the answer is "yes". I think that if you are-- and what we see in our local community is we work hard to get our calendar out first, and people will look at our calendar and they'll try to avoid it because they just don't want to try to compete with it. But a few years ago, we did have a competing date. They had the permit and I didn't. I just called them up and asked them to, number one, "Do you just want to join us rather than having the same event in the same community? Or can you move your date?" And they were hell bent on holding it, so they did it on Saturday. We did ours on Sunday. Then through discussion, they decided to change their date in the future. But they said, "No, we've already advertised it. This is ours." So yeah, from the permitting perspective, first come first serve.

Panos: 57:19

So advertising your date, you think, is a sound tactic in terms of, at least, putting a mark for your event before you start the process?

Clint: 57:29

Yes and no. Our perspective is that we kind of run, I'm gonna call it, the master calendar for our region. And not only do we put the events of our races on there, but also all the ones that we partner with. So we have 200-plus events on our calendar. So if you're looking to put on a race in our calendar, typically, you're going to say, "Oh, I wonder what's going on." And you go to look at the race calendar and you find all of our dates. Doesn't mean you have to open registration. So you can put the data out there as a placeholder to say, this is the expectation, and then start working on it. Typically, people will go, "Oh, well, that River Run is on that particular day. I'm gonna go the next day," and they'll choose different dates. It's very rare that I've come across competing events on the same calendar date. If I catch wind of an event on a date that I want and I can't convince them to change, then it's on me to change my date.

Panos: 58:26

What if I've had the permit issued? I'm all good. And then something happens. Maybe I need to change my date. Maybe I need to change my venue or tweak my course that would take me outside of the parameters of the issued permit. What happens then? Do I just reach out to whoever issued the permit and have another discussion about it?

Clint: 58:50

So I think, all along, it's not a one conversation done and go away. There's ongoing conversations and meetings and planning sessions with the agencies who are involved. So it really shouldn't come up to a point where there's a surprise. Now I say that, also understanding that surprises happen. You could get a sinkhole in the middle of the road and, all of a sudden, you have to change at the last second. I would suspect that the local jurisdiction will work with you to reroute the race because the impact is already there. If you just have to go one block difference, probably not going to change a whole lot. So I do think you should have alternate routes in mind for situations. Actually, Denver, Colfax, I just went to Road Race Management last week, and she spoke on permitting a little bit, and they have an alternate route certified and ready to go, but they don't like it, the police don't like it, and they really don't want to use it. Turns out that the Army Corps of Engineers were releasing a dam, I believe, and it turned out that they flooded their primary road, if I understood it correctly. Then, they used the alternate route as leverage to get the Army Corps to stop draining the reservoir, let the water recede, and then their primary route was available again. As soon as race week was over, they went back to work to relieving the dam, or whatever it might be. So sometimes having an alternate route already ready to go and approved could be leveraged to help you one way or the other. So that could be part of your permitting application, as I mentioned earlier on - what is your primary and what is your alternate route could be, and you might have both of them permitted at the same time.

Panos: 1:00:40

Well, we discussed earlier one slightly tricky area in all this, which is that some race directors may decide to go ahead with the planning of the race, or at least get started with it without actually having secured permits and it just so happens, as a result of that, sometimes, that people find themselves with permits denied midway through having been organizing races, taking registrations, making expenses, all of that kind of stuff. First question on that, is there anything you can do when a permit is denied? In your experience, does any of those processes allow maybe an appeal or something like that?

Clint: 1:01:26

Right. So the first thing I'll say, it's very interesting that, while we said you should start your permit application 6 months in advance, in my experience, you may not get the actual permit paper until the day before the race and it's just part of the process, and they finally go, "Okay, it's race day. It's back on their calendar. Okay, here you go." So most times, you don't actually get an actual permit until, like, you're going through your paperwork, race day, and like,"Oh, I don't even have a permit," but the police are all there. They're doing all the jobs. It's a formality now. So it's hard to know when you may be denied a permit - if everybody's moving along and City Council six months ago said, "Yeah, I don't see a problem, as long as the chief is good, you work with the chief, you get the safety plan, all the police are on site," and then for formality like, "Oh, you didn't turn in your insurance paperwork, I can't give you your permit now." You could have told me a week ago and it made life a lot easier. So I think it can be frustrating. Is there a recourse if they just say no permit is approved? I think again, a lot depends on the circumstance. We had a close call last year in that accounting engineers decided that they were not going to issue it to us, and they told us, while we're setting up on Friday at noon, that we can't issue your permit. Well, why? Well, because we don't know what the plan is for the city. The city knows what the plan is, and this is a matter of, I think it was more of a power thing. They just wanted to be in control and know everything. So that particular one, I was able to make some phone calls. This is where the way relationships come in to get it approved, with the understanding that we'll just meet with them earlier this year, so they are more aware of what the plan might be to shut it down. So they are newer to the permitting process. In this particular one, we work with the city and the township, but now the county wants to get involved for whatever reason. So they're just getting more involved in the rules of community communication. They just want people to know that it's happening.

Panos: 1:03:38

Essentially, you're saying there's very little you can do if a permit is denied?

Clint: 1:03:44

Yeah, if the permit is denied, then there's nothing you can do. It's your goal to have the relationships in place to prevent that from happening in the first place. But if they just say no, I mean, at the end of the day, police work for the city, and they don't typically work for you. If they're given the information to say, "Hey, go home. The permit's not approved. We're not working today," and your police walk. There's nothing you can do.

Panos: 1:04:14

Do you have any idea, or I guess from experience or things you may have seen, what events would tend to do in that kind of circumstance? Particularly if you have received registrations, I guess, what would you be looking to do? Like, move venue, or postpone the race, or give refunds, I guess, something like that?

Clint: 1:04:35

Yeah, so I've seen weather related permits being revoked, saying, "Hey, it's severe weather. There's no way this event is happening." In that situation, I think you would find that you would get,"Hey, let's just postpone it a couple of weeks to the next opening date." But beyond that, you've got to start figuring out, do you just defer everybody to the next year? Eat the cost? I mean, that is the risk of race management.

Panos: 1:05:02

And I guess maybe having, which not many events have these days, like a cancelation policy-- although I'm told by Nathan Nicholas, who's our sort of insurance partner on this, that being denied permits does not get covered by cancelation policies, but weather related stuff might, which, as you said, may be related to the cancelation, but just not obtaining a permit is on you. It's nothing that you can claim cancelation insurance on, so that won't protect you either.

Clint: 1:05:34

Right. Yeah. And then again, that is the risk of the kind of work that we're in. If in the last 11th hour, they say,"No, you can't do this." More than likely, you already have a bunch of sunk costs. It could be detrimental to your business.

Panos: 1:05:48

Well, absolutely. Last question from me, and I think it's one that is really good to have you on that - seeing as you are someone who repeatedly put such a big emphasis on relationships, which I completely agree in our business are very, very important outside of the permitting window - outside of the three months where you're putting in your permit and meeting with police chiefs and stuff, is there anything you can do at the community level, at the relationship level, to basically lay the ground or maintain their necessary relationships to make sure that when it comes to permits next year or the year after, or for many years to come, that you're in a good place to basically make the process as smooth as possible?

Clint: 1:06:37

Yeah, I think that's where the give back comes in. My example before, if you're coming into town to put on a race and there's no give back to the community, that's a hard pill to swallow for somebody who's trying to just go to work and now I'm shut down for somebody else's gain. However, if you are trying to give money back to the schools or a local nonprofit, at least you have an argument of why you're doing this and, whether that person likes it or not, they can see some substance that you're trying to help the community, not capitalize on it. So I think that's the big thing with road races is - what is your impact on the community and how are you there to help them? And most people are pretty nice and understanding about that because most people are nice.

Panos: 1:07:24

We're just on the cusp of a new year. We've discussed earlier in the episode that things are looking rosy. You talk to a lot of race directors, lots of industry insiders, you attend conferences. What's your outlook for 2025?

Clint: 1:07:38

I think for the mature races, you will see hopefully 10% to 15% increase. I think it might be a struggle for new races because there is still too much competition. I think there's probably room to shed some underperforming races. And you have to think everybody who comes to us and says, "Hey, I want to put on a race," our first answer is, "No, you don't want to put on a race. There's not much money in putting on a road race. And there's a sentiment from the general public that if you put on a 5K, you're gonna make thousands of dollars, and that's not really the case. It's expensive to do, and it's a big impact on the community." All that to say, I think the best way to summarize it is that the mature races, the ones who have been around for a while, the ones that are giving back to the community, they have a good story to tell. I think people are going to see a good increase in those but I think there's still a struggle at some of the smaller local races.

Panos: 1:08:38

Clint, I want to thank you very, very much. It's been super helpful, as always. I hope people took away plenty of notes around the permitting process, particularly if you're new to this or if you're looking to approach a new permitting process in a new area for a new race. So thank you very much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Clint: 1:08:58

Yeah, absolutely. Always a pleasure.

Panos: 1:09:00

Indeed. Thank you very much to everyone listening in and we'll see you guys on our next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode on race permits with Glass City Marathon race director, Clint McCormick. You can find more resources on anything and everything related to race directing on our website, RaceDirectorsHQ.com. You can also share your thoughts about some of the things discussed in today's episode or anything else in our Facebook group, Race Directors Hub. Many thanks again to our awesome podcast sponsors, RunSignup and Brooksee for sponsoring today's episode. If you'd like to learn more about these two amazing companies, head to runsignup.com, where you'll find just about everything you could possibly need to set up your race for success, including industry-leading registration tools, a professional free race website, free email marketing tools and tons more. And don't forget to check out Brooksee's new innovative Laurel timing technology, giving you real-time tracking of participants and a Virtual Command Center for your race, by visiting brooksee.com/headstart where you can also get a massive 50% off your first booking. Until our next episode, take care and keep putting on amazing races.