Race Medals

In 1897, the Boston Athletic Association, then only ten years old, decided to organize the first ever Boston Marathon, thus giving birth to the longest continuously running marathon in the world. Of the 15 people who took part in the race, ten finished. And to commemorate the achievement of its members in that inaugural Boston Marathon, all ten finishers came away with a medal, thus giving birth to one of the most enduring traditions in mass participation sports: the finisher medal.

So, what makes a great medal? How should you choose a medal that works best for your race’s theme and budget? What kinds of things should you look out for in designing your medal and managing those all-important order quantities and delivery timelines? And how can you use your most important race bling to attract new participants to your event?

That’s what we’re discussing today with my guests, mother and daughter, Kim and Morgan Ashworth of veteran medal suppliers’ Ashworth Awards. Now in its third generation, Ashworth Awards has been the go-to medal supplier for some of the greatest races in the United States for over 60 years. And with Kim and Morgan’s help we’ll explore every aspect of race medals, from production and design to order management and - seeing as the world’s heading that way - the effect tariffs may already be having on the price and availability of that all important finisher bling. 

In this episode:

• Pros, cons and costs of different types of medals: die-cast, stamped, acrylic, wooden medals.
• Medal platings and colours
• How race medals are produced
• The popularity and versatility of utility medals
• Made in the USA dimensional steel medals
• The effect of tariffs on medal imports and costs
• Working with a vendor to design your race medal
• Obtaining samples before a production run
• Managing order quantities and lead times
• Tips for reusing and recycling leftover medals
• Pros and cons of ordering through a vendor vs ordering directly from an overseas manufacturer
• Using your medal in your race marketing
• Offering personalized medals

Many thanks to our podcast sponsors, RunSignup and Brooksee, for supporting our efforts to provide great, free content to the race director community:

RunSignup are the leading all-in-one technology solution for endurance and fundraising events. More than 28,000 events use RunSignup's free and integrated solution to save time, grow their events, and raise more. Find out more at https://runsignup.com/.

Brooksee are the timing technology industry-leader, bringing affordable real-time tracking and timing checkpoints to races with their patented iPhone-sized micro checkpoints. Find out more and get 50% off your timing for your next event at https://www.brooksee.com/headstart.

You can find more resources on anything and everything related to race directing on our website RaceDirectorsHQ.com.

You can also share your questions about liability waivers or anything else in our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/racedirectorshq/ 

Transcript

Panos: 0:07

Hi! Welcome to Head Start, the podcast for race directors and the business of putting on races. In 1897, the Boston Athletic Association, then only ten years old, decided to organize the first ever Boston Marathon, thus giving birth to the longest continuously running marathon in the world. Of the 15 people who took part in the race, ten finished. And to commemorate the achievement of its members in that inaugural Boston Marathon, all ten finishers came away with a medal, thus giving birth to one of the most enduring traditions in mass participation sports - the finisher medal. Now these days, there's no shortage of different types and styles of medals to choose from. From your traditional die cast to the more sustainable wooden medal and all kinds of exotic variations in between, the finisher medal has become a key way in which races the world over get to express their unique identity and a major attraction in how they hope to capture the attention of prospective participants. So, what makes a great medal? How should you choose a medal that works best for your race's theme and budget? What kinds of things you should look out for in designing your medal and managing those all important order quantities and delivery timelines, and how can you use your most important race bling to attract new participants to your event? Well, that's what we're discussing today with my guests, mother and daughter, Kim and Morgan Ashworth of veteran metal suppliers, Ashworth Awards. Now in its third generation, Ashworth Awards has been the go-to metal supplier for some of the greatest races in the United States for over 60 years. And with Kim and Morgan's help, we'll explore every aspect of race medals, from production and design to order management - and seeing as the world's heading that way - the effect tariffs may already be having on the price and availability of that all important finisher bling. Now, before we get into this great discussion, though, I'd like to give a quick shout out to the amazing sponsors supporting this podcast. Many thanks to RunSignup, race directors' favorite all-in-one technology solution for endurance and fundraising events, now powering more than 28,000 in-person, virtual, and hybrid events. And many thanks to Brooksee, the timing technology industry-leader, bringing affordable real time tracking and timing checkpoints to races with their patented micro checkpoints. Two great companies we'll be hearing a bit more from later in the podcast. But, now, let's dive into our discussion on race medals with Kim and Morgan Ashworth. Kim, Morgan, welcome to the podcast!

Kim: 2:51

Thank you, Panos, happy to be here.

Morgan: 2:53

Thank you.

Panos: 2:54

Well, thank you very much, both, for coming on. Where are you guys joining from today?

Kim: 2:58

So this is Kim Ashworth. I am joining from our offices in North Attleboro, Massachusetts, at Ashworth Awards.

Morgan: 3:06

I'm currently actually home. I'm in New Hampshire at the moment. I live in central New Hampshire, though I'm typically at the office as well. This week, I'm just home.

Panos: 3:16

Well, that's great. And you commute to Massachusetts back and forth?

Morgan: 3:19

Yeah. It's a little bit of a commute, but it's totally

Panos: 3:22

Beauty of the East Coast. Everything's so close around worth it. there. Like, all the states are just so packed. You can move around so easily. So, the last time we met was in Athens - first time we met in person - which was really great to see you guys there at the European Running Business Conference. And I'm trying to remember, am I speaking to second and third generation Ashworths or third and fourth generation Ashworths?

Kim: 3:48

You're speaking to second and third generation Ashworths.

Panos: 3:51

Okay. Because I also saw a press release that we put out the other day for you guys, that it's your 60th year in business. Is that right?

Kim: 3:59

That's correct.

Panos: 4:00

Do you want to give us, maybe, like, the short version of those 60 years in business, and also a little bit about what each of you does at the business currently - Kim and Morgan separately?

Kim: 4:12

So I guess we'll start. This is Kim Ashworth. I'll tell you a little bit about myself. I have been working with my husband, Dan Ashworth at Ashworth Awards for 20 years. I am the Vice President, CFO at Ashworth Awards. As the company has grown, I have taken on and worn many hats and many responsibilities, but my current responsibility is Vice President and CFO at the company. I do work with and have my own customer base as well, and helping to manage the sales team and coordinate with our business ops team as well.

Morgan: 4:54

So I'm our Chief People Officer at Ashworth Awards, kind of doubles up CPO, COO. So there's a little bit of a shared responsibility there for me, but I do a lot of the people operations of the company, as well as the organizational development and continuous improvement in the organization. So while I am mostly internal, I do have a few sales typically working on some of those different industries, actually, though I'm a runner myself, so you would think that I was the one working in the sales and the running industry, but that's actually Kim. And I've been with the company for a little over five years now. I've been loving working with my parents. It kind of just happened in conjunction, actually, with the pandemic back in 2020 knowing what was coming. I ended up joining the company at that point in time, thought it was just going to be an internship, turned into a full time position, and I couldn't be more thankful to continue the tradition that my grandfather, Doug Ashworth, started back in 1965. So Doug Ashworth, which is my dad's dad, he started the company, actually before Dan Ashworth was even born, and Dan started working in it as a kid, doing assembly, doing manufacturing work, whatever else needed to get done. So we joke that he's been in the company his entire life, though I think - his actual years - he's been there, like, 45 technically. So Doug Ashworth started the company in '65 and then I believe it was 2001 - correct me if I'm wrong, Kim - that Dan took over the company and you joined him at that point in time. Technically, you were joining way before then, but officially joined it in 2001 and then I followed in 2020.

Panos: 6:45

So back in Doug's day, actually, because not very many businesses in the industry have been around for 60 years. You weren't doing running medals and stuff back then. I don't think races were around in the same way that they are today, I guess. Even race medals back then, I'm guessing it's something you would have given to first, second, third, not the kind of thing that we know of today. So what was the business back 60 years ago?

Kim: 7:12

So, 60-65 years ago, it was an emblematic jewelry manufacturing company. I know that's a big general broad reach. So it was mostly service award. We manufactured service awards and put together service award programs for different corporations - lapel pins and, as some people might call them, merch or tchotchke type of gift jewelry items. So that's how the company started in the 60s, and then it definitely expanded. And in 1983, our first dive into endurance sports, really, was my late father-in-law, Doug, was approached by someone that he knew within the jewelry industry and that he had a relationship with, dad had met with someone at the BAA and they were interested in someone that would make pewter medals for finishers for the Boston Marathon, as the marathon had expanded. And I think, at that point, they were on track to have about 300 finishers. Crazy to think that, not too long ago, there were only 300 finishers to the Boston Marathon compared to the 35,000 that there are today. His friend said, "I think I know someone that can help us with this," - essentially, is the shortened version of this - and approached my father-in-law, Doug, and he said, "Yes, I can help you with that if you're manufacturing something out of metal. You can manufacture anything out of metal, it's just a matter of the mold and the standing and the plating and all that." So that was our first dive into endurance sports. We know from the 80s that, in the running boom that occurred and all that-- so that was our first toe-in-the-water of endurance sports, and then where it's gone to from here.

Morgan: 9:10

I feel that Kim and Dan actually expanded on that market due to their interest in the endurance industry. They were both triathletes, and Kim has been a runner her entire life. And so naturally, the company grew into that market, since they were already participating in those events.

Panos: 9:28

Absolutely. I was about to say that fun fact about the Boston Marathon. I just came across an article on Runner's World as I was doing research for this. And apparently it was the first marathon in its very first event back in 1897 that gave medals to every single finisher, which was all 10 of them back in 1897. And as Kim says, we've come a long way since then. In terms of where the company stands today - I know that you're quite big in the US doing lots of business, I guess Canada being next doors - what's the business looking like in terms of numbers today, in terms of medals that you do, races you work with, that kind of thing?

Kim: 10:11

Our customer base, if you were to break it down, is predominantly in North America, Caribbean, Mexico. We do have a customer bases in Europe as well, but we're predominantly in North America and more Western Hemisphere. We are continuing our expansion into Europe. We were expanding into Europe pre-COVID. And then, we all know that there were a lot of changes that happened and events that unfortunately had challenges due to COVID and didn't survive. So we pulled back and stayed with our core, but now we're continuing that expansion into more European, Asia, Southern, Africa, all of that. So we're continuing that. But, I mean, we have thousands of customers. To tell you total numbers - I should know that off top of my head as I was running reports last week - we make millions of medals a year. And it's not just medals - medals, awards, lapel pins, all total products. And we manufacture in the US and then also overseas as well. That's been a big expansion piece for us. Just prior to the pandemic, we had soft launched the expansion of our dimensional steel medallion line as well as all the awards that we already were producing at our facility in the United States. And it was like we had a crystal ball because I think that everyone in the industry had challenges due to COVID, with shutdowns, with shipping, logistics challenges, all of that, and we didn't have that because we had full control in our own facility and we're continuing to expand our facility in the US to be in full control of all of our manufacturing and shipping and whatnot.

Panos: 12:11

Okay, so let's dive a little bit into the world of medals. You mentioned the dimensional medallions, which we're going to get into a little bit later. But what I wanted basically out of this podcast was to be able to give people an idea - particularly people who may not have as good of an understanding of all the options that's available to a race director when it comes to medals- but also some of the best practices when it comes to ordering and shipping medals and all of that stuff. So just to think of this as a bit of a one-on-one for race directors on everything that has to do with medals. And you guys obviously have tons of experience in this. So where I was thinking we could start is by just taking a look at a quick overview of all the different types of medals that are out there. I mean, obviously, medals, people think of metallic stuff, but there's other kinds of materials being used these days - wood, acrylic, all kinds. So I just wanted to have a quick sort of look at all of those. So let's start with the metallic ones - the metal medals, the things that people are most familiar with, the things that, as you mentioned, go out into the Boston Marathon, the larger races, the really nice stuff that most runners enjoy going away with from a race. What are we looking at there in terms of techniques of producing these medals and basically how these things come together - what they look like, what options, what kind of final designs you can get, starting with just the metallic stuff? So what's the options there?

Morgan: 13:59

Yeah, so for the most traditional type of medal that we see out there, it's a diecast medallion. It's typically a zinc alloy that the die cast is made out of, so zinc being that primary metal component. Obviously, zinc alloy-- there's a little bit of other stuff in there, but zinc overall. So within die cast, there are so many different options that you can use it. It's a stamped medallion, and so there is an upfront cost for the stamping that is across the industry in any form of die cast, whether that'd be a medal, a pin, jewelry, whatever else it might be. Every single organization has the same method with diecast. It is a stamp. To start, it's the upfront cost and then you use that stamp to then create and mold the zinc. Within it, you can mold hills and valleys, as I like to say, you can build that dimension within it through that. You can have color within it. You could just plate it and keep it singular color. A lot of the major marathons, we tend to see them sticking with just traditional gold or silver colors rather than adding in, like, epoxy fills for colors. There's options for, say, translucent. Sometimes there's options during movement like spinners or sliding pieces. Even glow in the dark could be an option with diecast. So diecast has a lot of options behind it, different features. Obviously, the more features you have, the more expensive the medal becomes. But all in all, it started as zinc alloy that then gets stamped, solidifies as molded and gets plated - hopefully plated. Some organizations do not plate their zinc alloy diecast medal.

Panos: 15:50

Okay. I have tons of questions already. What always confuses me about this terminology is-- people speak of stamping, of stamped stuff, and they also use the term cast, which to me, seems to imply, sort of, you melt some metal into a mold, type of thing, whereas stamping implies, to me, more of a "you punch something onto a metal and it leaves a kind of the design behind" kind of thing. So which one are we talking about? Are we talking about both - basically a mold where you pour the metal in - or are we talking about just, let's say, like a coin shaped thing with nothing on it that you just stamp the design on?

Morgan: 16:33

So what I can say is stamping is used synonymously with casting. So either way, you can't actually just stamp the piece. That technically is still considered casting because the piece can't be a solid piece when you stamp it. Another way stamping is sometimes used is synonymous with cutting. We are just cutting the exterior of the metal for the shape. But all in all, when I say the word stamping, I'm using it synonymously with casting. You don't actually have a different process between the two.

Panos: 17:05

Because I see, for instance-- and you tell me if these are produced through the same technique, right? So on the one hand, you have your classic-looking medal which looks like a coin, looks like what people imagine when they think of a medal with the ribbon attaching at the top. It has a little bit of a dimension on it, as you say, picks and troughs and valleys and stuff so, but maybe not thicker than maybe one or two millimeters or something at the surface of the metal. And then you have kind of, like, sky's the limit type stuff, where you can have anything hang from a ribbon that can be-- that doesn't really have the two dimensional feel that the coin type medal has. It can be even, like, a solid stone, or I've seen, like, hands gripping each other, whatever. So are these two both created through the same process?

Morgan: 18:05

Yes, yeah. So they both have molds which are then used to create the process. One might be a one sided mold versus the other being a full three dimensional mold. But either way, it is, in fact, yes, the same process. I'm using, like I said, stamping and casting are sometimes used synonymously.

Panos: 18:24

Okay. And as you mentioned, both of these processes - going into the mechanics and costs and stuff - they would require some kind of upfront cost to design what you call it-- the mold - that's what you need to design, right?

Morgan: 18:39

Yeah. Yes, the mold - the piece that the metal goes into to then firm up and create the actual 3D or maybe it looks a little bit more 1D, has just a few hills and valleys in it. Either way, there is an upfront cost for the die itself. Some people do charge for artwork, some don't. Some competitors of ours will charge for artwork, at least at partway through. So, different organizations have different processes involved, but overall, there's an upfront cost for that mold itself because it's an expense to just create that, the piece that you're using, to then stamp and/or cast the pieces.

Panos: 19:23

And the base medal that you mentioned earlier, the effect you might have, whether it's gold effect or bronze effect or all of that stuff, or even fancier things that I've seen, like different types of metallic finishes, that is sort of the one of the options of starting off with a kind of metal surface that you pick, right? You can have any of a number of surfaces to start to start with, then you do stuff with it. Maybe you color it later, that kind of thing.

Morgan: 19:55

So you start with a zinc alloy, which is just a typical grayish color, and then you can, yes, plate on top of it, and that plating is then what creates, say, the gold color, or a bright silver, or an antique silver finish, maybe copper, or a full-on color like green, red, something along those lines. So you would have to plate it if you want a specific color after the fact. The underneath of the metal-- say, if you do plate a gold medal, the underneath of it is some sort of grayish color.

Panos: 20:25

Oh, interesting. So, basically, if you scratched it, so to speak, the base material underneath all of this stuff is the same. It's just the plating that changes around that?

Morgan: 20:36

Yeah, it's the plating that changes around it. I will say it takes a lot to truly scratch through plating. It should be its own type of metal, so it should be really hard to get through. And that's not to say there aren't casts with other types of medal. Like, you could cast with actual gold or actual silver. That's what we see fine jewelry being like. Obviously, that is much more pricey.

Panos: 20:59

Now, in terms of these medals that you just described, which, again, I guess we're talking about a large percentage of the overall medal industry, right? I mean, most of the races I go to offer medals of this kind. And maybe, Kim wants to chime in on this because this is an experience question. Is there anything that you haven't been able to do with a medal like this? Have you faced a situation where someone comes to you with a "I want to do this?" And you're like, "No, this is impossible. We can't do this with this kind of technique."

Kim: 21:33

I don't think that I personally or anyone here has said that, "No, we can't do this." I always will say to my clients that I've worked with-- and I have some clients with some amazing, crazy thoughts and ideas to say, "Hey, I have this crazy idea. Do you think you can do this?" And I said, "Oh, I'm sure we can probably do anything. It's a matter of having the manufacturing understanding and the assembly understanding of how to create that die and how to assemble it so that it works and it gives the desired outcome." We've had-- this past year, I have a customer that they have a medal for a virtual race series that is completely three dimensional and I think it has eight separate pieces that starts as a flat medal and then it opens up to a full sphere with pieces that move and spin. It's a matter of having that vision and understanding of how to bring that crazy idea, as a customer has said to me, to life, and just knowing how to do that appropriately, so that it works and functions in the way that they want. You can take that same knowledge in terms of a spinner component or a hinge component or how to connect the pieces and how to create that drawing so that it does fully function. So if you can imagine it, I would say it can probably come to life. It just might take a few iterations. Something that I think as a standard in the industry that we'll oftentimes do, like a preproduction sample, or they'll do-- I can only speak to how Ashworth Awards does it, but I'm sure other vendors in the industry as well. As you're working with your production team, it's a matter of, okay, we have the digital renderings, and then we have the raw casting, we might work through and have some back and forth with our team of, okay, let's see how this is functioning. Let's make changes and tweaks and then bring it in as a preproduction sample to make sure-- for the customer, we'll create it as a preproduction sample to make sure that it's functioning exactly the way they want it to be, and then there's a lot of back and forth. It takes a bit longer to produce something like that. And if customers want something that's unique, crazy, has all different attachments and functions and spins and opens and whatever, it can definitely be done. It's just having that manufacturing knowledge of how to bring it to life.

Morgan: 24:31

Yeah, I was going to add that you really need to ensure you're working with an organization that can build around the physics of that medal. So understanding those production files is really critical. Obviously, organizations that create their own production files and also manufacture rather than organizations that don't create production files, only create mock ups and then send it externally and aren't involved in that production process, obviously they're going to be less successful than the organizations that do produce production files and understand the physics behind manufacturing.

Panos: 25:04

Is it fair to say that these types of medals, compared to other things we're going to go into like acrylic and wood and all that stuff, they are the most expensive per unit to produce, I guess?

Kim: 25:18

If you're comparing a diecast medal to an acrylic metal or a wooden medal, yes. The medal, base medal products are more expensive than the acrylic and the wood because the raw material itself is more expensive. And then, again, they need to be plated, then they need to be color filled, versus an acrylic or a wooden medal, you're starting with-- and I guess we can kind of transition over to that, if you want. They start with either a flat stock acrylic or flat stock wood. Then, it is cut out using a laser, and then it's UV decorated with that color decoration, and then assembled with something, so you have less-- first of all, you don't need a die - so that's a piece that makes it more affordable - where a die cast or stamp requires a die. Every company, I'm sure, has a little different pricing model. We have a very small fee just for the digital setup. I can't speak for other companies' pricing models, but about the same, I'd say, or a quarter of the price, probably, of what a die charge would be. And then you don't have the plating piece, and it's just a digital decoration process, essentially. So it's much more affordable. There's less layers to the manufacturing process, less steps to the manufacturing process, I guess, I should say. And the raw material itself, acrylic and wood, is definitely more affordable as a raw material.

Panos: 26:58

Well, let's talk a little bit about acrylic and wood, and we'll get back to those points of comparison, actually, once we have a little bit of a better understanding of what those involve. Starting with acrylic-- I think people may have some idea of what that involves. Just to clarify it, can you provide a little bit of detail on what these acrylic medals are made of, what they look like, what kinds of races they might be suitable for, I guess?

Kim: 27:25

Sure, sure. So when we speak to acrylic and in terms of just in general-- I think Morgan did a great job of explaining what product, what raw materials go into producing a diecast medal. So an acrylic medal-- for anybody that's not aware of acrylic, it's a polymer that starts as a liquid and then it is actually cast into a flat sheet, and then it's cut out. But the acrylic that we've worked with, it can be a clear acrylic. It has almost the feeling of a plastic, but it's acrylic. I mean, think of like an acrylic tumbler or an acrylic plate or whatever. It's still that same. It starts with the polymer that is then created into what-- in the medals industry, it starts with a flat. And it can be different thicknesses, but it could be clear, it could be blue, but still able to be translucent. You can see through it or green. There's different colors. But the standard, typically, as we work with for acrylic medals or even awards is clear and black. There are other colors, but the more colors you go into, it increases the cost. But the standard is acrylic and black. And there's different thicknesses for that. So what we work with, typically is three eighths inch or three quarter inch. That's the standard of what we work with, and I think that's pretty close to an industry standard as well. And then with wood, it's the same in terms of we work with three eighths inch and three quarter inch wood. And for us, the acrylic and the wood products are made in our facility here in the US. Other vendors are definitely sourcing it overseas, but we work in terms of our sustainability efforts in sourcing locally. So just as a piece, in general. But the wood-- so acrylic medals, you were saying, who would typically use the acrylic metal and what application would that be good for, type of an event? It's something that you want it to be more vibrant, more colorful. In Hawaii, it's vibrant, it's colorful. So they really liked the use of the acrylic medal because of the color and almost, like, that see-through, almost like a sun catcher. When Morgan spoke to translucent color fill and die cast, that's like a sun catcher effect. Well, you have a full sun catcher effect when you're working with acrylic - the clear acrylic to see through. Kids events will choose an acrylic medal. It's more affordable, but it's also lightweight, and sometimes kids like to spin their medals around and whatnot. So it might be a better choice for children versus a metal medal in terms of the safety for what it is. But it's definitely a lot more lightweight. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend an acrylic medal for someone that's run a marathon because it's not heavy. And I feel like the weight of a diecast or dimensional steel, or whatever it might be, there's a certain weight and value to that for the athlete.

Panos: 30:41

It sounds like it's a more kind of budget-friendly, maybe fun run leaning type of medal. As you say, kids' runs-- I've seen them a lot in kids runs, lots of, like, Santa runs, that kind of thing, right? Like your fun type of event, colorful, as you say, but more affordable. But on the flip side of it, as you said, yeah, if you run a marathon and you were given one of those, you wouldn't feel particularly happy with that. It feels a little bit light, which is also, by the way, my personal criticism - as as a racer - of wooden medals. I've seen some amazing wooden medals, particularly some of the elevation culture ones that you guys had partnered with in the past - really, really great designs for trail races. But then I've also seen wooden medals, particularly in shorter races like your local 5K or whatever, which you feel very, very underwhelmed by.

Morgan: 31:46

Yeah, as a runner as well, I can see how people wouldn't want, necessarily, a wooden metal, if they're not extra creative or different. Obviously, yes, we do those layered wooden medals as well, and those layered wooden awards, and those build that dimension, that build that interest versus, like, engraved medals, wooden medals. Those are also building interests. I will say wooden medals, we often see in the trail industry, most often in the trail running industry, because you're running through the trees, it's all about sustainability on the trails, usually. Obviously, we see sustainability growing in general across the endurance world, but trail running specifically is so focused on it, and so wooden medals are kind of a natural part of them. What is great is there might be an option for a combined medal in wood piece for those extra long trail runs, and it would be a little bit harder to do with die cast than it than, I would say, dimensional steel, which is another type of metal I'm sure we're going to be getting into.

Panos: 32:47

Yeah, I guess, also for the really, really long trail runs, you go into belt buckles and stuff like that, right? So you have a completely different type of medal you can wear on your belt, which is always fun. In terms of minimum order quantities, again, going back to the fact that diecast have molds and dies and stuff and all of that involved. I'm guessing acrylic and wooden also offer the flexibility of being more responsive to changes in quantity, etc because, basically, you just turn on the machine and you print as many as you want. And as you say, in many cases, like in your case, locally, you don't have to phone overseas and say, "I need another 100 or 200. Put the machines on." It's just a much easier process to produce those, right?

Morgan: 33:35

Yeah, yeah. It's a quick return for sure. Definitely less costly, obviously, shipping lies even less costly because of the lighter weight associated with the medals. So those are all really good contrasting reasons you might use diecast versus the other pieces.

Panos: 33:56

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Kim: 36:06

So there's different things you can incorporate into the medal. Like you had said, we can incorporate a bottle opener into it, and it depends on it. You wouldn't want to offer a medal with a bottle opener for kids' race. I mean, they can have root beer, but they can incorporate a bottle opener. You can incorporate even, like, a wine bottle topper. It could be specific to that event. And I think everyone in the industry will ask different questions in terms of, ultimately, "What is the theme of your race?" to try to lead them towards building their brand. So you can take that finisher medal, regardless of what the race is, and work to build your brand. And then what else can we do with it? So, for example, Girls on the Run International, we have created their medal with a finisher ribbon, or heart and soul ribbon, depending on the program. But then we've added another layer of convertibility to it so that the lanyard can actually be removed and it has a separate J clip on it, and then the medal itself also has a key chain attached. So the medal can be a key chain, and then the lanyard can be something that can be attached, whether it's to their backpack, or they can even attach that finisher medal to their backpack, in terms from a kids perspective, but even for adults, if you have keys, just the lanyard with the J clip. So adding that convertibility to it adds that additional function. And in terms of thinking of sustainability, if you're increasing the function of it post race, for a race that's building your brand, someone's continuously seeing that logo for that race, whether it's on that lanyard-- and it depends on the size, right? If you have a four inch finisher medal, you're not going to necessarily put a key chain ring on it. But what else can you do? Like I said, adding that J clip onto that lanyard so that it comes off.

Morgan: 38:01

Yeah, it's definitely those medals or awards of utility. I like how you say practical medals. We say utility, oftentimes, because they have different uses. We see those very commonly with certain race directors who might be focused on that utility. Maybe they're not as big of a fan of the medal side of things. So I do believe everyone deserves that Olympic feeling at the end of whatever race or accomplishment they've done, but some people want that utility. And so yes, we see coasters, we see the involvement of key chains, jewelry, or the transferable medal into something else. And I will argue that it's also an upsell item for those races. So for example, you might have to sell the necklace piece separate. They can get it right there. They can pre order it where they get it with their medal. Maybe they get the key chain ring with their medal instead of needing to go out and get that key chain ring. So it makes it easier for their consumer, but it's actually an upsell item for them too.

Panos: 39:01

Yeah, that's actually quite interesting. And it's the same with apparel, where you have the tri-blend, which helps people take the shirt into the real world, moving away from tech. Anything that gets this, as Kim mentioned, this kind of brand items out into the real world is a bonus for the race, if you can use it in different circumstances. Quick note for our listeners that some scratching noises coming through a Morgan track is her new puppy. Apologies for that.

Morgan: 39:31

Very sorry, everybody.

Panos: 39:33

It's okay. There's an animal involved. That's why you hear some scratching noises that we may be unable to remove. So I think that's pretty much it in terms of your basic categories of medals, with the exception of what you were mentioning earlier- dimensional steel medallion. As far as I understand, is this something that you guys do only, sort of, in the US? Is this a product that you only offer?

Morgan: 39:56

Correct. That is correct.

Panos: 39:58

Wooden medals, acrylic medal, as you say, in some circumstances, because they just involve cutting mostly, they can be manufactured in the US, but most of the Zinc based stuff that we mentioned earlier, the die cast, they're built overseas, often with vendors having people out in factories overseas, overseeing the process, et cetera, et cetera.

Morgan: 40:19

Yes.

Panos: 40:19

But now, these steel medallions that you guys started putting out a few years ago, they're still made metals, and they're built in the US. What does that involve, exactly? And not only what does it involve, what does the end product look like? How comparable is it to a diecast? So basically, how would it compare? Because I guess that's what it directly competes with in terms of options. And also, how does it compare in terms of costs, shipping times, order quantities, that kind of thing. What kind of problem does this solve, basically?

Kim: 40:54

So this is a line that we had actually-- I spoken briefly to it, that we had soft launched in 2019, early 2020, so just before the pandemic. And in terms of the problems that it solves and one reason why we launched this line is we wanted to bring manufacturing back, bring control back into the US, and a lot of our customers in their challenges in talking about lead time, needing a shorter lead time, like I said, the majority of our customers, I'd say probably 75% are in North America or Western Hemisphere. So we heard that lead time, we could decrease the lead time. We heard that die charges, as an expense, whether it's built into the price of the metal or a separate charge, is different pricing models in how we price it sometimes. Sometimes, customers want all in, or some customers want to have it broken out. But the die charge, it's really just a digital setup for the different layers of it. So that's less expensive. The per piece cost is comparable, I would say, to an overseas medal. The per piece, depending on what the quantity is, may be slightly higher, but the transportation cost is significantly lower. So if you're looking at it, if a race director-- and we've offer different pricing models when we work with different race directors in terms of, "This is your per piece for an overseas medal and this is what would be the approximate shipping cost to ship it from Asia to you. And then for a domestic medal, this is your piece per piece, and then the dimensional steel, and this is what your shipping costs. So if you look at it apples to apples, they're very, very comparable when you're looking at it all in, and oftentimes we're finding the dimensional steel is actually less. We can also offer-- I mean, we offer, typically, minimum order quantity for die cast is 100 and I think that's kind of industry standard. There's always special situations, so I can't speak to-- there's always gray areas and everything. But for us with the dimensional steel, we can offer a 50 piece quantity, or even 100 piece quantity, but it's a faster turn. But as you're doing it again, you only have, like, the setup charge because it's digitally rendered. There isn't the die. And to speak a little in terms of, as you look at it, it is very comparable. I mean, it's been little over five years now. And if you looked at the first iterations of these dimensional steel medals compared to what they look like today, they are 1000 times more intricate, 1000 times more modulation. We've worked really hard to really compete with the look of a diecast medal, especially, as Morgan had said, like with the modulation of the hills and valleys and track lines and all that. We've actually taken a diecast medal that had a lot of dimension and then created a dimensional steel metal to compare to it and we've actually shown them to individuals at a trade show, and they're like,"Which one's which? I can't tell which one's which." It's all based on the design, but it's based off of the time and energy and how we really developed the look of it. Just speak to how it's made. I can speak to a little bit. There's some proprietary information there, but it does start with, like, a flat stock steel, similar to acrylic and wood, and there's different thicknesses. The typical thickness is 11 gauge, so a typical thickness of a diecast medal-- our standard is 3.5. Different vendors go a little bit thinner, but our standard is 3.5 and 11 gauge steel, and is very comparable to the thickness of a 3.5 millimeter diecast medal. Then we powder coat it. So we have, I think, it's eight stock colors of powder coating. And then from there, we dimensionally decorate it with the proprietary decoration process. And it's that dimensional decoration that we're able to add to the medal is what creates all of the hills and valleys, as Morgan had said, in terms of a diecast medal. We can create that same type of a dimension. One benefit to dimensional steel as well is its unlimited colors. When you're talking die cast standard colors, and I don't think we really talked to this at all, typically, when you look at a standard pricing model, it's six colors or less, which is still a significant amount of colors. But in the dimensional steel, it's unlimited because of our decoration process. There is no additional cost. You could do 20 colors, and it wouldn't matter. And then we can even incorporate full gradients and fades, and there's so many different design decoration options that we can incorporate into the dimensional steel that can't be incorporated into a die cast.

Morgan: 46:21

Yeah, and I can add to that, where, within the dimensional steel, thanks to that decoration process, you could have something that looks like an actual, real life photo. You can't get that with diecast. I actually like to talk about, there's this one favorite medal I have. There's always a cow on it. The cow is different every year, but it looks so realistic. And then second to that, bean pot. It's a very common dish to the Boston area. There's a picture of a bean pot medal on our page, and this is from a couple years ago, but people thought it was an actual bean pot. They didn't realize it was a medal, which is really interesting that you can get that dimension and then 3D look of a photo even through this process. I like to tell people to really simplify it. Dimensional steel, basically, we've inverted the diecast process. Instead of starting with a melted type of zinc that's then molded and firmed up, and the casting is what makes the dimension, we start with a flat substrate that's a hard piece of metal steel, which is recycled, and then we build the dimension on top of it. So kind of what you're thinking on, like, the stamping type of idea, where it's more of a 2D but still 3D, in a way. So unfortunately, we can't do full three dimensional with the dimensional steel, but those are very-- they're fewer and far in between, I would say, when you see the medals out there. People want a metal that sits well on someone's chest or on the wall, when they're on their medal hanger.

Panos: 47:58

So how well has this product been received? Because I speak to vendors quite often in both medals and apparel and other areas. To be perfectly honest, I think it would be really great if more things were manufactured locally in the US, for US races, etc. And one of the things I get from particularly apparel vendors is that cost is prohibitive. And lots of vendors offer US-based, say, shirts, but then when race directors are confronted with the price difference, it's a little bit hard to swallow. Again, talking about apparel here. So you're saying cost, which seems to be a very sensitive area in this stuff, is quite competitive for the steel alternatives. When a race director comes to you and it's offered either the steel or the traditional zinc, what's going through their minds and where do they come out, and why?

Kim: 49:02

Obviously, their first question is cost. What's the cost difference? And the other piece is the lead time. I think that's a piece of it as well. And then there is the question of if a client hasn't seen the dimensional steel medallions at a trade show in person, I mean, you can see-- we feel like we try to do a really good job of showcasing them on our website and on our social media pages and whatnot. So oftentimes we'll say, "Well, why don't we send you some samples so that you can see it, feel it, touch it, really get an understanding of what it is?" Especially when we're talking about the application and what's important to them for their race and what they've done before. And we'll oftentimes ask a customer, "Can you send me samples of what you did before?" So it's almost like a two fold conversation, so that we can see what they've done, and then we can make recommendations, because we do want the customer to be happy with the end result. Another piece that I meant to mention in terms of the advantage of the dimensional steel is steel is a metal that can be manufactured from 100% recycled steel - that is used to manufacture the steel that we use and then our steel metals can be 100% recycled to make another medal versus zinc. Zinc can be melted down and recycled, but only 20% of that zinc can be recycled and reused in another diecast session. Because it's an alloy, it's not pure. Steel is pure. So that's another piece. In terms of the sustainability, steel is truly sustainable. We have sustainability initiatives. That's another reason why we work to offer another sustainability option, because, like we said, zinc-- and we have always recycled. We literally have two massive cans that have zinc medals and die casts-- sorry, the zinc die cast medals and steel medals. And it's picked up and taken and recycled. But we know that this steel that is coming back could potentially be our own steel, but the zinc is definitely not, because only 20% can actually be reused. There's no such thing as 100% recycled zinc medal. So that's a big piece.

Morgan: 51:33

I'm gonna say zinc can't be 100% recycled through its entire lifetime, basically. It has a forever life cycle compared to compared to zinc. I also feel that another reason people might look to steel medallions from diecast is because of those timelines. I'm sure you might have touched on this a little bit, but I feel that even the reorder timelines, adjusting the amount of medals you need-- you could potentially adjust the amount of medals you need when you order dimensional steel, say, six weeks, four weeks out from your event. But comparably, you can't really adjust how many you've ordered for diecast because it's already considered a reorder, even if it's before your event. Well, I know certain industry organizations will rush a diecast job and get it to you within maybe a few weeks. We hear a lot of quality issues there, and I have people come to me and say, "Hey, I'm worried about the quality. Like this is really important to me, but I want this rush." I'm like,"Well, what if we look at dimensional steel? If you really need to rush, let's try to avoid the rush jobs because the more time any organization can spend on the product, the better they can have it come out for that customer." But I do feel timelines play a large, large part, whether that be for the regular order, the reorder could be a reorder prior to the event, or reorder post event.

Panos: 52:58

Well, speaking of all that, we've already alluded to the fact that most people would be familiar with, that lots of these medals, with the exception of a few that we discussed, are being manufactured overseas. We saw during COVID and the supply chain disruptions that we had back then, how tricky that can be - managing orders from abroad, lots of races were left without medals, things were-- I mean, admittedly, it was an exceptional time and things were all over the place with more than medals. Now, we're going into a time where lots is changing around tariffs, other stuff in the US. Do you anticipate any obvious changes that might come about, particularly from tariffs or other kinds of, like, things that may be in the works currently in US trade policy? You guys manufacture from steel. I think steel has been tariffed in terms of some origin, steel's going into the US. Metals are coming from overseas. Is there anything obvious that you see there going forward that may affect people's orders, lead times, costs, any of that?

Kim: 54:20

To speak to the tariffs, the bar kept moving. And at first, it was 10%, it was this, it was that. Well, now, the tariff from overseas, from Asia, is 20%. We still don't know, and things are going back and forth between Canada and Mexico, and what that's going to be for us, and if it's steel that's sourced from Canada, per se, the steel that we source is a locally sourced steel from Pennsylvania. That may potentially affect supply chain demand. We're not seeing that right now, but that's ever moving. So that could affect, but we don't know. I think that we've definitely met with and talked with multiple vendors before the actual tariff, and this was probably back in, like, January, early February, before the tariff was finalized, of what it is, and it's ever changing. It could change again in another month, right? I feel like a lot of these tariff challenges are to open up conversations and negotiations between other countries. What a lot of vendors have been doing, and we had done the same is anything that was quoted pre tariff or even sales that went into production pre tariff, the price is the price per se, and then the tariff, that duty, is charged at the time of the shipment, at the time that it is leaving the country and headed to the US. Something, just for customers to know is it could even be something that's on the water and it hasn't landed, but that shipment won't be released at US soil until that tariff is paid. And this goes across the board for every vendor, and every vendor, I think, is handling it differently. But at the time, we had said, it's just going to be an additional fee that goes on to the shipping cost because that essentially is when that tariff is assessed. But just knowing there is no getting around it, it's a government regulation, it is what it is. I can't speak to how all other vendors are handling it, but the few that we had spoken with said that, at the time, they were just assessing it at the time of shipping, because it just is what it is. Now, it's definitely set, and they're saying it's a 20% tariff. Something for just race directors, customers, to know is that tariff is assessed at the cost. And I know for ourselves, in terms of being proactive, we had worked to kind of assess things as we were quoting, and even absorbed some of that so that it wasn't a total increase to the customer, if that makes sense, and I believe that's what most vendors were also doing. We do have a set number now, which makes it a little bit easier for anything moving forward. We didn't have that many because we manufacture so much in the US, but we did have some customers actually last week, once everything was kind of finalized and set that we just communicated individually with those orders that we knew were going to be affected, and we just did a like a small tariff surcharge onto their order so that it wasn't something that was a surprise once they got their shipment. So we were trying to work proactively with those customers based off of how things were priced or quoted. And, like I said, we work to try to absorb a portion of that because we know that our customers are budgeting for a certain number. And I think everybody knew it was coming. And I think that they're always like, "What is it? What is it? What is it going to be?" I'm like, I wish we had a crystal ball, but now that we know, but we've effectively communicated and my assumption is the other vendors in the space have also done the same thing. I mean, I can't speak to what they've done to communicate, but we've already reached out to any of our customers that were affected in that in between time, I guess, I could say where we didn't know and, for the most part, they're all like, "We knew it was coming", but it's not-- there's always a tariff and a duty associated with orders, so it's not new. It's just something that customers just never were aware of. It was just part of our cost of doing business, and that was part of our pricing model, and now this was a smaller percentage.

Panos: 59:16

So you're saying, with these new tariffs that have been coming through, that there's orders that are already being affected, price wise? This is already having an impact?

Morgan: 59:28

Yeah, and that's happening industry wide. Yeah. So it could happen from apparel to medals to whatever other pieces you might have coming from overseas. What's great is certain vendors are sharing that cost with customers, so it's not affecting the customers as greatly as it could have. And we're one of those.

Panos: 59:48

Okay, I didn't realize that this is already starting to sort of come through in terms of actual costs.

Morgan: 59:54

Yeah, it was finalized. Supposedly. It could change again, and we're going work with that. But luckily, our team is on top of it. And from our conversations with other vendors, they're also on top of it. It's not industry wide that we know they're on top of it, but many vendors are. So just make sure that whomever you are working with is, in fact, on top of these changes, aware of them and communicating them with you as the customer. The only thing I can say is the vendors who have a greater control over their supply chain, meaning they're directly involved in that manufacturing process or overly communicative with their customers, they're going to find more success when we're dealing with these difficult economy changes. I will say we're seeing the changes mostly with diecast, but it's not affecting us as greatly thanks to our dimensional steel product line.

Panos: 1:00:49

It is what it is, I guess. Like, race directors, if there's one skill they're great at, it's rolling with the punches. So another punch there they all have to adapt, unfortunately. You know how everyone these days talks about "the race experience"? Well, there's big truth to that. As someone once said, as a race director, you're not really in the racing business, you're really in the experience design business. And one of the most important aspects of creating a great race experience for your participants is getting them to share their experience with their loved ones on race day. Well, that's traditionally been an expensive business reserved for only the largest of races, but not anymore. With Brooksee's Laurel timing technology, you can bring affordable participant tracking to your race and the joy of engaging AI-driven commentary for your spectators following their loved ones around the course. Not to mention peace of mind for you and your crew with pinpoint accurate participant positioning for everyone around the course. It is that simple to make your next race an experience none of your participants will ever forget. So, to learn more and to book in your next race for an amazing, exclusive Head Start 50% off, head over to brooksee.com/headstart. And see what Brooksee's patented Laurel timing technology can bring to your next race. Okay, back to the podcast. I want to talk a little bit about the design process and the ordering process. This is something that I think many race directors would be very keen to learn more about, particularly as it pertains to ordering quantities, being able to order optimal quantities, but also understanding a little bit more of the creative side of things. So a race director decides to buy some medals. It's their first race. They come to you guys or to any vendor for that matter. What does the process sort of look like? I reach out. What is expected of me as a race director to provide? How does the creative back and forth happen? How much of that creative input needs to come from me versus your in-house designers? Just walk us through that a little bit.

Kim: 1:03:17

First question that we'll ask the race when we start to work with that event director, whether it's a race or an event, whatever, do you have a logo? Do you have brand guidelines that you can share with us? And it's really beneficial if they have it in vector format. So just to speak a little bit about that, the vector format is it typically the file is going to have an AI extension, an EPS extension, or an outline DPS or an outline PDF. And the purpose for that is so we can ensure that we match that branding, those brand guidelines, whether it be PMS or Pantone Matching system colors, the Pantone colors, specific fonts. There's so many things that we want to make sure that we adhere to for that race's brand - to make sure that we have that all. So if that can be provided, then that's absolutely wonderful, and it certainly expedites the process. If a race doesn't have that, that is absolutely fine. We can work with them to kind of develop that brand. It just might take a little bit longer, but that's a good basis. Then from there, we might just ask questions of-- if it's a previous client, we'll already have a good understanding of their race. But if it's a new client, what's important to your race? What is your athlete or your attendees' race experience? What are the key things? Do you have an idea? So we'll ask different-- I kind of call it a brainstorming session, and we'll work one on one in whatever way works best, whether it's a phone call, video call, email correspondence. But if it's brand new, we try to have those, like, initial kickoff brainstorming sessions just to get an understanding of what's important to that race and for that athlete experience. And then in that back and forth of that conversation, we can oftentimes determine what's the size, what's the finish. We could share different examples of what we've done for other races. Or do they have any medals that they've seen, that other races have given out, or awards that they really like, so we can have an understanding. It's more of a collaboration is what I would say. But I've definitely had race directors that have said to me, "I have no idea. I'm not creative in any way, shape or form. I need your help," and that's fine. That's what all of the vendors in the space, I think, are used to. I can speak to my team and how we work with it. I feel like we are super creative, and we're known for being really creative, but that's part of that collaborative approach. And we'll just ask those probing questions to try to get an understanding because the race director might not realize what's important about their race course, or what it is, and we can kind of help to devise and create that medal design. But if a race director says, nope - I'm working with a customer right now - that they already have a member of their team that is a designer and has some designs, and said, "Okay, this is what we want. This is what we're thinking." And then we kind of go from there and make it more their own. Yeah,

Morgan: 1:06:32

In a way, the vendor acts as a sort of consultant for those customers in what the design needs to be, finding the alignment between what the vendor can do, including ourselves, and what the customer wants. And so taking that collaborative approach makes it more effective. Yes, some people will come. Some customers will come and say, "This is the design I had. This is what I want to do." And it's about finagling that design and ensuring it follows the production process at that point. So it's more so applying that design to our production processes or the vendors production processes. Other times, it is a full creative development. It could even include the creation of a logo for that race. I know we've had races and other vendors who had races that come to them and say,"I don't even have, like, a true official logo. Can you help me create it?" And that's a part of the design process. And so taking that consultative framework is extremely important. And I would argue that budget plays a large role. So if there are multiple product lines to choose from, then the budget of the customer, if they already have one lined out, will help the vendor determine what exactly they should design, obviously not giving those extra features if it's something they're not going to be able to afford, because you don't want a customer falling in love with something that they're not going to be able to purchase in the end. So let's make them fall in love with something that is aligned with what they can purchase.

Panos: 1:07:59

And I guess ,going back to the discussion we had about the different types of medals, lead time must play a role in this as well, right? Because speaking of die cast for instance, how late can I go with starting this process if I wanted to have die cast medals, which I'm guessing has the longest lead time in terms of design, molds, dies, blah, blah, blah, shipping from overseas and stuff. So, how late can I leave this stuff?

Kim: 1:08:29

So, I mean, every vendor, I think, has a little different lead time, but similar. But I've heard from other clients that some vendors require a longer lead time for, say, boat shipments and whatnot. So if we're talking overseas manufacturing for die cast, specifically, the lead time-- part of it is designated based off of the size of the order and the intricacy of the order. The more intricate bells, whistles, spinners, gliders, attachments, hinges, that's going to take a little longer, but if we just kind of speak to the standard, I would say, for a boat shipment anywhere from, like, a 12 to 14 week lead time, and that's going to garner the lowest per piece, because we're able to bring it over from overseas on a boat versus air shipping. Metals are heavy. If you're going to ship it, it's going to be more expensive. If we ship it via air, it's going to be more expensive. But on a boat, we're able to ship it-- I'd say on average, a metal is anywhere from $1 to $1.20 more if you're going to ship it air versus boat, if that makes sense, and that's kind of on average. So I would say a 12 to 14 week lead time. I have heard from other customers that other vendors require a longer lead time. I can't speak to why that is. It's something with their process - why it's going to take a little bit longer - but I don't also know the quantity or if there's a different process to how they put their boat shipments together. For an air shipment, typically, you're looking at a six to seven week lead time for an air shipment from overseas. There are times where we definitely can expedite and do it sooner. We've done it as short as four weeks, five weeks. But if there's any delay at all on the shipping, we can manufacture pretty darn quick, but it's typically about a week to ship from overseas to the US via air. And if there's any delays in that shipping carrier piece, that's out of all of our control. That's why we like to do more of a six to seven week lead time so that if there's anything that happens, we have a way and a solution for that. Domestically, typical lead time, it's abbreviated a bit more, I'd say five to six weeks. We can do shorter. I mean, we've done orders in as little as two weeks. I mean, we've had customers come to us, and I know we want to speak to the-- in general, but they had a shipment that got lost from a previous vendor, or even our own, when we had a shipment of metals, when all the boats were floating out in the ocean on Long Beach, and the boats just couldn't come in because they had the strike going on, and we had metals that were out there. All vendors had metals out there. We were able to remanufacture in a matter of a week and the customer had the medal.

Morgan: 1:11:34

And that's in a different process. We shouldn't know, no? Obviously, right? Taking the die cast and making it dimensional steel, right?

Kim: 1:11:42

Right? So the lead time domestically, we have that benefit of decreasing that lead time.

Morgan: 1:11:50

And I would say that when it comes to the decreasing of that lead time for domestic products-- domestic can be, obviously, we're talking about Made in USA. We're not the only vendor Made in USA, I do note that, but we're probably one of the more prominent ones. And so any vendor that is creating made in the USA products, the reason they can do that shorter lead time is because it's not shipping as far. They might be able to jump the queue. It's a little bit easier to do so, but it does depend on production capacity. So obviously, it is a very busy season prepping for spring races and spring events. And so right now, it might be a little harder to slide that order in compared to, say, in the middle of summer or say the middle of winter. That's not to say those production lines aren't busy throughout the year, but production capacity say, if they're already at capacity, or they're above capacity, then it might be hard to slide in at those times, not to say it's impossible, though.

Panos: 1:12:46

Is it possible through this process, or economically viable, I guess-- I'm thinking of overseas, zinc, mainly, because that's the bulk of what most people would order. Is it possible to obtain a sample so that then I'm more comfortable with the fact that if I go to production with thousand medals, they're going to look as I expect them to look? Is it typical of how this process works? Because I've heard from many people that, generally, in many cases, they may be getting pushback on samples or there might be, very understandably, a cost, because then you need to build one and ship it or whatever. So like, how common is receiving a sample in this process?

Morgan: 1:13:28

I would say maybe 50-50, especially for those larger orders we see them more often. Obviously, I would say that a lot of vendors do prefer to get that preproduction sample, simply for the fact that you want to make sure it's quality and it's actually coming out the way that you had planned the piece to come out. Yes, there is a cost associated with it, because obviously you're doing a cast, which is the upfront cost. And then following that, you need to have the shipping charge. And then if there's a recast, obviously that's a disappointment if there has to be some sort of recast, but as long as the production files were correct in the first place, you usually can avoid that. So yes, samples, I would say, are probably about 50-50. Sometimes, we see more. I would say it fluctuates depending throughout the year, and depending on which customers are putting them in when. Certain customers prefer a preproduction sample for every piece. Other customers simply want one for one of their races, even though they have multiple.

Kim: 1:14:27

Something to think about. I mean, we can do preproduction samples for any customer as long as time allows. If they're already at their-- say, for a boat shipment, we start the process. I think all vendors try to be proactive to reach out to their existing customers that they work with year point year to start working four to eight weeks before the order deadline, from what the similar order was from the previous year. But it's going to probably add at least another three to four weeks in to that production timeline because we need to produce it. Like Morgan said, the die needs to be created. Typically, it takes a week to two weeks to create that die. Then it's cast, then it's plated, then it's colorful, assembled and shipped. So you're looking at three to four weeks, and then we need to send it directly to the customer. So because when the preproduction sample comes in, even though we've touched it and worked with our team all throughout the whole process and seen it, we need to see it and then send it to the customer. So that's adding more time. So if someone's coming to us at 15 weeks and their order is deadline for that boat shipment is 14 weeks, there's not going to be time to do a preproduction approval. We definitely have gotten creative when we're in that situation, and we could do approval via picture or approval via video. So there's ways to get creative, but the piece with that is, if there's going to be any changes, there's no time for a change. And that's not to say that there was a production error. If the customer looks at it and says, "Oh, you know what? I think I want to change this design element." Even though we created exactly what they wanted, it removes that opportunity to make a change. We can do preproduction sample for air as well. But again, you need to think that you need to back it up. So if your air shipment deadline say it's seven weeks out, then it makes it 11 weeks out. If a client, customer, has that timeline, absolutely, we can definitely do it, but it's a matter of having that time to do it because full production won't go until that approval is received from that sample. Another thing that we can do for a boat shipment, and this is conversation, and I believe all vendors can do this as well - I can only speak to what we've done, but it is possible - is if races, say, they place their order, maybe they're 18 weeks out and they're happy with it, the digital proof is perfect, and they feel confident that it's exactly what they want, we can get early samples in via air to send to the customer so that they can promote the actual product versus, like, a digital mock up or whatnot. And I think that kind of into, like, marketing piece, but that is a possibility,

Morgan: 1:17:29

Yeah. And one thing to know is, obviously, if time doesn't allow for preproduction samples, then that proactivity and collaborating with the client for design and really communicating what's going to happen with that design is extremely important. So really, if the preproduction samples aren't possible, then make sure there is a highly effective communication and collaboration so they already understand what the physical product is likely going to look like without actually needing to see it. They can visualize it.

Panos: 1:18:02

Yeah, this is all getting a little bit stressful already, which is a great segue to my next question, which is perhaps the most stressful area. I see lots of questions in our race directors group, Race Directors Hub on Facebook about this, particularly from junior race directors - a very common question around how do you manage order numbers when you have to order medals sometime before the event registrations haven't closed. Perhaps it's a first year event, so you can't fall back on past statistics and stuff. Obviously, you don't want to be in the very regrettable position of running out of medals to give out at the finish line, which can be quite painful. But on the other hand, you don't want to be left with, like, lots and lots of medals that you can't reuse. So what do you tell customers in terms of the best way to manage this uncertainty of, "Oh, I don't know how many I'm going to have, but I need medals. I can't run out. I don't want to be left over with stuff." What do they do?

Morgan: 1:19:08

So I would say, the first step is-- just kind of a couple steps, I would say in here. But the first step would be really trying to use those stats that are available in the industry for what the attrition rates and the growth rates do look like. So those stats can help you pre plan your numbers of what you're expecting for people. So at least you can get something in there that's roughly correct. Second, I would say, is working with a vendor who could potentially change the number that you're looking for a little bit closer to your event. But if you order, say, 12 weeks out, and you need to adjust it at six weeks out or four weeks out, working with someone that can do that is extremely important. And then third, obviously, you can do a smaller order, and then plan for a reorder prior to the event. But planning budget wise, that it is likely going to be a little bit more expensive due to the shorter timeline. Obviously, if you can get the second step, which is working with a vendor who can adjust your number within those timelines, that's really helpful. And then fourth, I would say, is working with a vendor who can help recycle those products. So if you do, in fact, have leftovers because you've over planned, then working with someone that can help you give recommendations for donating your medals, or give recommendations for recycling, or working with you to recycle those medals is all very helpful. I know certain vendors, us included, work with the lean methodology, which is, don't over produce, produce exactly what you need. But most races are going to keep 10 to 20 extras because you might have a racer that later on says, "Oh, my medal got ruined. This happened. I need a new medal. I couldn't find mine." So then they can send another one. Those are always great to do. Also, doing more marketing material later on, showing the development of the medal over the years, especially if it's a series based event. So you do want a few leftovers, but if you can get rid of those leftovers through a recycling process, that's always helpful.

Kim: 1:21:11

And if I could just add too. For that first time, like you said, a junior race director, or that first time race director that doesn't have history, a recommendation-- and not to say that exactly what someone should put on their medal, on their ribbon, whatever it might be, but I know a lot of races like to put the date or the year on it, but if it's your first year, and you don't have that history, and you're really not sure, but you're also really worried that you're going to run out, maybe consider having the same medal for two years. Don't put the year or the date on it. Or just as a suggestion, you can put the year or the date on the sublimated ribbon, but don't put it on the medal because the more expensive piece of that set is the medal. And then you can work with that vendor to know you have a plan to the next year, still produce the same medal, have a new ribbon design if you really, really want to have the year or the date on it. And then you can switch out the ribbon with the new so the next year's order will have the same medal, new ribbon. And then, additional ribbons can be produced to attach to the previous year's medal. So it's still looking different in the next year, but the medal is the same, and that's the more expensive piece of it. So just as a solution of a suggestion of something that we've executed.

Morgan: 1:22:43

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Kim, that I totally missed. So thank you for adding that. And I can think we've actually had a few orders go through recently like that, where they only ordered ribbons. They didn't actually order medals, because they preordered all those medals the year before, and they knew they had enough left over for the race this year. And what's great is those ribbons actually do have a shorter lead time.

Panos: 1:23:07

Yeah, that's a great tip, actually. We do have crowd sourced type of article on this, on our website as well, racedirectorshq.com, on things you can do to basically manage orders a little bit better and not be left over with things like what you guys mentioned. Like, first thing you'd hear from people is, try to maybe put the year on the ribbon so you can reuse the medal. Also, what Morgan mentioned around DNF rates, DNS rates, lots of people that are registering may not show up for the race. You need to be a little bit nimble around that. My personal suggestion is, don't cut it too close to the wire. Like, don't try to over optimize and you end up running the risk of not having medals there because what many people do when they go into this scenario is they have to ship a medal after the date, and then it's a lot more expensive. The runner is disappointed anyway that they didn't get one on the day. So it's not a situation you want to find yourself in. So you are going to end up with a few medals, a few leftovers. Some people even put sort of, like, lucky dip, leftover type races where they bundle all the medals from the race and shirts and whatever, and they give it out randomly. They do, like, a leftover race. So there's lots of things you can do, but definitely err on the side of caution and don't end up not having medals to give out. That's a definite no, no. One thing I want to discuss is this trend you see lately of people ordering medals directly. So lots of the Asian factories that are manufacturing these medals, they're trying to penetrate mostly the US market, which is the largest market for races, and they're reaching out to race directors directly. Many race directors have experience ordering stuff directly overseas themselves, so they reach out to people overseas directly. There's definitely pros and cons involved in that. I guess why most people do it-- the obvious advantage of doing that - going directly - is the cost because, essentially, you remove one layer from the process. There are some downsides to that. What's your guys take on this? I guess, obviously, stating the obvious, you're on one side of this. So, you wouldn't want necessarily to encourage people doing that. But what should people sort of be aware of when they do that - going direct overseas?

Morgan: 1:25:50

Yeah, well, I can speak first for all vendors to let you know that the Asian factories, the Asian distributors that are reaching out to are not the ones that we actually work with. So they're not aware of what's being made, how to make it, because most of those overseas facilities are actually assigned to contracts that they can't go after the customers that we work with. So first and foremost, the vendors reaching out to you aren't even in the space, so they're not the ones we're working with. So be very cautious. Second to that, unfortunately, a lot of those'Asian distributors' that are'going direct', they're actually not direct. So there's oftentimes consultants within distribution facilities and within manufacturing facilities that are actually just distributors. They're not involved in the manufacturing at all. We actually have seen this with feet on the ground, going and visiting different facilities and meeting multiple people-- this is Dan's story, I could say-- meeting multiple people and going to the same factory with three different people in that one day and trying to figure out who the actual manufacturer is versus who's the distributor. So be very careful, is the first thing I can say. And obviously, for all the vendors out there, they're not the ones that we are actually working with any vendor that is in the space, so they're not aware of the space, they're not aware of the industry, and they likely can't give you as much support because of that. Something else to be cautioned against is you're going to face a major language barrier. So while lots of the vendors in our space that are in US or in North America, but we are English-speaking, we are going to better be able to work with those vendors and communicate in the way they need to be communicated to, and then communicate to the customer in the way the customer needs to be communicated to. So you're going to have major communication barrier, which is going to result in lower quality, miscommunications, missed events. You got to be really, really, really careful there. Oftentimes, when we hear people going direct, the piece doesn't come out right, they get the wrong medal that was for another event entirely. They don't get it in time for their event. So you have to be careful there. And then third, the vendors that we're working, some vendors are feet on the ground over there like ourselves, where we're very aware we're involved in that overseas manufacturing unit, while other vendors in the industry are less involved, but you're going to more likely get the support you need as a client when you're working with an individual that's actually located in, say, North America or in your industry. And so you're likely going to get ignored if something did happen with your order. You're not going to get the support, you're not going to get the money back, you're not going to get that quick fix, or that fix in any shape or form, if you do go direct. That's not to say it happens with every single direct distributor or factory overseas, but it is very common. Again, that's because they've already got their money. They're across the world. You can't get them at that point. And so it's really critical to work with someone that's going to support you, that wants to partner with you, and that is being that true consultant and wants to see your event become more and more successful. You're not going to get that same type of relationship if you go direct. And then, like I said, a lot of the vendors over there that are trying to come direct, they're not actually in the industry already, and so they're completely separate from the overseas facilities that are already working in the industry.

Kim: 1:29:32

And something that to add for that as well, Panos, where you had said, the obvious is that the pricing of that product is going to be less because they're working directly with somebody, right? Be forewarned that you're paying that factory for the product, but that factory, when they ship it to you, they're shipping it to you. You don't have those very keenly negotiated shipping contracts because if you're working direct, you're only shipping one-- maybe someone does five events, but it's only five events versus, for the vendors in the space, the thousands upon thousands of events that we work with. I mean, we have less now that we've expanded our domestic manufacturing facility, but we have keenly negotiated all of our contracts, and we are continuously negotiating our shipping contracts because that's just an expense that our customers do have to pay, whether it's embedded into the per piece cost or if it's a separate cost. But the vendors in this space are always going to have better shipping rates and better shipping partners. And if there's challenges with customs-- I mean not to say that we can affect if something gets caught in customs, but if something gets caught in customs, we have these keenly negotiated shipping partner relationships all the vendors do versus a race director that is importing five orders, two orders, three orders, could be 10 orders, but that's going to be that race director's, I guess, cross to bear is what you could say - that challenge that, as a race director, you want to be focusing on your race, your athletes experience, all things that you need to do. Let us, the vendors in the space, be that solution for you to manage those challenges - if there's a shipping challenge, whatever it might be. So just to caution that, because maybe you're saving 50 cents a medal going direct, or whatever it might be- I don't know what that number is - but think that you could be paying twice the cost in shipping, and then if something goes awry in shipping, we are the experts, the vendors in the space are the experts of importing those products. And let us be that solution for you versus you-- and we've definitely had customers that have worked with us for years. They decided they wanted to go direct, and then they came back and they have said to us, "It is not worth it. I had this challenge, I had this situation, I had that." And it's not every situation. And I guess you need to kind of weigh the risk versus reward benefit there. But as a race director, there's so many other things that you need to do. Your time is also worth money. Think about what your time is and what the cost of your time is, and let us take that piece off your plate, basically, is what I'm saying.

Panos: 1:32:44

Yeah, it's definitely not an option for the faint hearted. There's a lot of stuff involved. And as you say, it's not like race directors are particularly full of time and don't have things to do. So yes, interesting point. What I want to end up with, which is a very important aspect of medals as a kind of cultural asset in races, is the way people use them for marketing races. And I think I've seen several surveys on the back of that that people run for the bling. I think we know that. So, lots of people would run for a nice race medal. I remember this story from-- it was probably almost like a decade ago. Remember when the Mexico City Marathon or something, they did this multi-part medal with one letter of Mexico being every year edition or whatever, and people resorted to stealing, lying, whatever, just to get the full set. So people get really, really attached to a nice medal. And many races use them really successfully in marketing. They do the medal reveal. I remember Matt Trevor, who's a race director we've had on the podcast before they even did, which I've seen other races do, crowd sourcing design ideas. So before you even come up with a medal, you would ask your audience, "Hey guys, help us design this year's medal or whatever." So who of you is the expert in this and can lend a few tips on how to actually use medals in marketing?

Kim: 1:34:27

I can take this question, Panos. It is a critical piece of your marketing, absolutely. We have literally, and I'm sure other vendors as well-- we've had athletes even come to us to ask us what races we're producing medals for so that they can go do those races. So they're not only looking at the races and their medal reveal, but they're even coming to vendors and saying, "Where do you make medals for in this area?" They're literally saying,"I live in North Carolina. I live in Florida. What medals are you producing? What races are you producing metals for?" But engage. For example, I can talk to something that the BAA has done in the past couple years with their medal reveal. They've even done teasers, and I've seen lots of other races do as well. They'll show part of the medal, but not all the medal, just in creating that social media content and creating that excitement leading up to the race. And each day, they'll show a little bit more to the end of the week, perhaps to show that full medal reveal. And it could be initially a digital mock up to the end result being the physical medal of what it is. Some of them, it's an image. Some created as a GIF, so there's movement in it, whether it's a digital GIF or an actual physical image GIF. I would say, use that all day, every day, as part of your marketing efforts, because you have athletes that are looking and picking their races. I mean, we all know there's social media pages, bling whores, bling that. There's Medal Monday. That's something that didn't exist 10 years ago of people showcasing their medals. And Medal Monday can be, I want to show you what I did over the weekend or Medal Monday is part of the reveal. It's the race director side versus the athlete side, and how that collaborates. And don't forget to continue post race, because those athletes are continuing to promote your event organically. Use that. It's the first thing to use to promote your event and your experience, and it should be that continuous even after the event, because that's promoting your next year's event. Use that until you come up with a new design medal and as a series as well. If you have a series, make sure you're promoting your series. And one thing that we work with a lot of race directors when they're creating a series is having a collaboration of that series, whether they connect together, whether they display together as a set, because that is just going to create that continuous, organic growth of your event, because people are looking to do the series. You could have someone that was only going to do one event, but then you have five, and they're like-- well, like you were saying in that event in Mexico, they want all of them. So that's the easiest, most organic growth. But you need to promote that by showing them, this is what you get at the end. And they're like,"Well, wait a minute, I want to sign up as a series. I don't want to just do a one-day event."

Morgan: 1:37:43

Yeah, and it's funny, Panos, that you ask who's the expert here? But it's funny because Kim and I are both involved in the marketing at Ashworth Awards, and so she has a lot of ideas. She kind of created the foundation, and I've kind of taken it and run with it, and then I'm constantly going back to her and asking for more ideas. I mean, we've had races ask us for help in creating marketing material by adjusting the mock up a little bit, or changing the coloring, changing the background, trying to make a little bit more realistic, but that mock up looks like, if they don't have a picture of the product yet, also asking for imagery of when it's in production so they can promote it. They also want that, and we love doing that, obviously, because we're so proud of our production processes, and I'm sure other vendors feel the same way. But when it comes to your medal as a marketing tool, organic growth is exponentially larger and bigger in the marketing sphere than ever was with the addition and boom of social media at the moment. You can definitely see that if you are engaging with your consumers, so your racers, if you're engaging with them and their posts, then you're going to get that much more followers, that many more potential participants, that much more interest. I mean, we see races decreasing their qualifying times because so many more people are getting into the running industry. It's great that there are also charity entries, so anyone can kind of run that race. But again, even the charities, it's competitive to get in and work with certain charities now, which makes it so that you have to raise even more money. So there's a really great benefit, not only for your race, but for the charities that you're working with. And so, all in all, that organic growth is so, so important. Playing and taking advantage of the trends on social media and incorporating that with your medal reveal is a great way to reveal your medal. I know other locations, other races they will do, like, this whole video with mascots. If the mascot's on the medal, or if the mascots related to the race, it'll play into that, play into yourself and how you and your vision, your culture of a race, and involves itself with that medal or with the reveal of it. So it's not just about the medal, it's also about you as a race. But all in all, you do see the amount of registrations increase post medal reveal.

Panos: 1:40:13

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, as I said, lots of people, they would enter a race just for the medal, or it would be the tipping thing that gets them to enter a race. And, particularly, as you say, if you tease it, you get a lot of mileage out of the reveal, multi post, drag it out as much as you can from design, prototype, all the way through shipping, arrival, unboxing, whatever. You can do lots of stuff just to squeeze every ounce of content out of that. One last thing, sponsors. Obviously, if you have a sponsor participate, if it's a title sponsor, it will be on the name of your event, which by extension, put them on the medal. If they're not, what kinds of ways do you see for races to promote sponsors through the medal, which, of course, then becomes a leverageable asset for the race to sponsors and say, "We're going to do this and that for you on the medal." What can races do on that?

Morgan: 1:41:13

Yeah, oftentimes, when say, if races don't have a title sponsor, so that it's not part of the name of the race, and that's not part of the name of the race on the medal, then we will see the inclusion of multiple sponsors, say on the ribbon. So there's multiple sponsors on the ribbon, placed throughout the ribbon, kind of incorporated into the design, also utilizing the back of the medal too. So the back of the metal can be a very helpful area to add in races. Usually there's an expense to that because the more creative, the more decoration you're doing, the more expensive a medal is going to be, in general. But the cost to do that compared to the benefit of getting those sponsors, I would say it's definitely worthwhile for many races to do so. I was actually speaking with a friend recently who she was putting on her first event, and she was saying that the expense of insurance was just so much, and she was nervous about that. And so I asked her, like, "Well, did you think of asking them to be a sponsor, potentially, even if you got just a percentage off of your insurance for that reason?" She was, "I didn't think of that." So they became the title sponsor of her event, and it resultingly saved her a lot of money and actually, paid for her awards. So that's a really great way to also add all of these extra benefits. Maybe you have a shirt sponsor, so their logos on the shirt that you distribute to your racers, and now you have extra swag items for your racers. Again, another attractive standpoint for them.

Panos: 1:42:44

What about these aftermarket personalization bits that you get from medals like iTAB and all these things where you can actually have someone's time on the medal, through an insert into the ribbon or at the back of the medal. Are you guys involved in that? Is it third party companies that do that? Do lots of races go for that? Do you have anything to say around that?

Kim: 1:43:07

So we have worked with iTAB. It really depends on the race and how the race wants to incorporate that. iTAB is a great solution. It is something that we have also done for some of our customers as well. So iTAB is predominantly in the diecast space. It can be also applied to the dimensional steel. Every vendor is a little bit different, but when you asked in terms of what we've done, we've even done fulfillment. Post race, we've been able to do a similar ribbon hanger with those details on it for a post race. For purchase during registration, iTAB, I know their platform, and I don't want to leave anything out for them, but my knowledge of what when we've worked with them is that they set up a separate page on registration. There is a link into that registration page so that athletes can be purchasing their iTAB during registration or post registration. I have done something similar to that with other race directors as well, that they wanted to have us do it because we were doing the medals. And we've also executed that with awards, like age group awards and overall awards. So for a race that's not doing a post race celebration, they can send it to us in a shared sheet - spreadsheet - and then we handle the fulfillment piece. So we're taking that off of the responsibility of that race director, and they just provide us with those details, and then we can personalize it with the name, finish time, all the details that's kind of predetermined in the design, and it's typically executed within a couple of weeks of the race. So two different ways that you can offer that.

Morgan: 1:45:08

Yeah, yes. There's definitely a variety of ways to incorporate personalization to the product, to the medal or the awards. Yes, there are some third party distributors, and they work directly with races, usually, to incorporate that and get it involved. You oftentimes see those in, like, the bigger races, more so than anything. But then there are races that prefer to just work with the vendor. They're already making their medals, if the vendor has the capability and the processes to support it. So that's another great way. But there is another way where, on the back of the medal, there is a location for personalization and certain races have people on the ground, also typically third party that go on the ground, and they engrave the medals. They engrave the back of the medal, and add that personalization right there and then, as people are walking through that post finish line. So that's another way that personalization is added. It's a part of the medal. There's just a placement for it in the medal, and then a third party comes in to help with that engraving. I know some timers are a part of that, and they add that to the benefits that they give to races they work with. Other people, I do believe do that on their own too. It's just complete third party. Some races incorporate it into their general staff.

Panos: 1:46:25

And this is usually, I'm guessing, like, a value added service, meaning people pay for that, right?

Morgan: 1:46:30

Yes, yeah. And typically, people do pay for it. They added on, like, Kim was saying, during their registration. Just like during series events that you can sign up for the whole series at once and you might get a collectible item that's maybe a hanger or a medal holder that holds all those series medals. I know BAA does it. I know there's the Wisconsin Tri Series that does it too.

Kim: 1:46:49

And I know I can speak to-- different retail vendors also offer that. In Berlin, I think it was the Nike store - Nike or Adidas - that they offered it at one of their stores. It's escaping me. I think it was--

Panos: 1:47:07

Must be Adidas. If it's Berlin, must be Adidas.

Kim: 1:47:09

Yeah, it was Adidas. But I know in Boston, Nike has offered it before. I haven't seen anything this year of who's offering that, but that was almost a value added. Some that there's a fee on site. Some, there isn't a fee. And some you can make appointments. There's different ways to do it. But like Morgan said-- and different race directors, I know Finish Line Engravers is a company that offers that service, and has definitely traveled from race to race, and they will do it, and they bring their product with them, and I believe that there's a fee associated, but there's a different way to do it. And if it's something that's built into registration, that vendor, whether t's that timer is brought in, then it could be that value added, that this is what's charged at the time of registration, but then they have a contract, obviously, with that outside vendor to do it, and then there's that. So that's also a good value added income piece that can be a piece of registration that is that is offered.

Panos: 1:48:16

Awesome, very helpful ideas, particularly this engraving thing and the value added stuff. We want to be thinking of medals as a kind of profit center, not only as a cost center. We want to be getting people to think of how they can use their medals to make more money, cross sell, incentivize people to do more races, add revenue to the race, all of that stuff. Guys, how can people reach out to you if they had any questions about anything we may have discussed - the design process, anything at all?

Kim: 1:48:49

They can reach out to us individually if they want. We make our emails really easy. Mine is kim@ashworthawards.com. Morgan's is morgan@ashworthawards.com. Or if they don't remember that, our company name is Ashworth Awards. So it's just ashworthawards.com, and they can click in either contact us or info line, and just let us know that they're interested in more information, and their email would get routed to us, and we can help to steer them into whatever direction and answer whatever questions they have.

Morgan: 1:49:23

Yeah, Ashworth Awards are all about continuous improvement and continuous learning. We actually have interns that come in and lots of different individuals coming in to train our teams, and so we're happy to have these conversations with customers, potential customers, or even individuals that we don't yet work with. So feel free to reach out and let us know if there's more you want to learn about any piece of what we've talked about. We'd be happy to share.

Panos: 1:49:48

Fantastic. So I want to thank you both very, very much for your time today. It was a super tip-filled episode - everything about medals. I hope our audience enjoyed this. So thank you very much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Morgan: 1:50:04

Thank you, Panos.

Kim: 1:50:05

Thank you, Panos.

Panos: 1:50:05

And thanks to everyone listening in and we'll see you guys on our next podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode on race medals with Ashworth Awards' Kim and Morgan Ashworth. You can find more resources on anything and everything related to race directing on our website, RaceDirectorsHQ.com. You can also share your thoughts about some of the things discussed in today's episode or anything else in our Facebook group, Race Directors Hub. Many thanks again to our awesome podcast sponsors, RunSignup and Brooksee for sponsoring today's episode. And if you'd like to learn more about these two amazing companies, head over to runsignup.com, where you'll find just about everything you could possibly need to set up your race for success, including industry-leading registration tools, a professional free race website, free email marketing tool and tons more. And don't forget to check out Brooksee's new innovative Laurel timing technology, giving you real-time tracking of participants and a Virtual Command Center for your race, by visiting brooksee.com/headstart where you can also get a massive 50% off your first booking. Until our next episode, take care and keep putting on amazing races.